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  • by mod request

    You've been accused of plagiarism by another poster, and I'd like to get to the bottom of this as quickly as possible.

    The quote can be found in the link to the thread below.

    Please start a chat to moderator so we can discuss.

    http://bibleforums.org/showthr...46#post1746446

    Post was number 47.

    Thanks,

    Theophilus
    Since it mattered to one poster, I cited all original sources. If the accusing poster believes these where a book writers original thoughts or words, he is incorrect. I've written the same on my Orthodox blog, and been asked if they were from a book titled "The Mystic Theology of the Eastern Church" by Lossky. They are not his thoughts and words. I cited and quoted some authors (early fathers) in the post your speaking of, but I didn't quote all sources word for word. In a following post I cited some original sources for more info.

    There are many Orthodox books with such quotes and their sources not cited. But, sometimes it doesn't matter if you remember which father, as there are many in the church, but that you recall what they said in teaching.

  • #2
    Okay, Teke, I understand what you're saying...but there's a problem. By all appearances, it still appears to be plagiarism. I googled two random selections of that post, and both were word for word repeats of Lossky's book.

    The board has to appear above reproach in all matters, and this could be construed as a legal breach. We want to "avoid all appearance of evil."

    As I see it, there are two courses of action here:

    1. I can delete all posts that appear questionable and reopen the thread.
    2. You can edit the posts to include something along the lines of "...many of these thoughts can be found in the works of Lossky, et al."

    Whatever the course of action, you are going to have to be extra careful in future posts in regards to citing the works of others, even if said works are in the public domain, or are the words of the Orthodox fathers. This is a two strikes and you're out...okay?

    Let me know what it's going to be.

    T.
    θεοφιλε

    Comment


    • #3
      Just delete the posts. I don't want Apotho using the cited references for his book. Lossky's quotes are from the sources I cited. All Orthodox write in accordance with patristics, or they are irrelevant to other Orthodox. There is no individual opinion in Orthodoxy as that would go against their conciliar approach with patristics.

      BTW, I could make the same claim about Apotho, as he has continually used Francis Schaffer's works and misrepresents them. He's basically trying to present a false doctrine according to his philosophy (his area of expertise). Ironically, while he idolizes Francis Schaefer and his studies, he has attacked Francis' son, Frank, because he is Orthodox. IMO both father and son are correct in their theology and only someone not familiar with Trinity theology would say otherwise.

      I have found that any doctrine can be proven or disproven by Trinity theology.

      The only reason I addressed his thread is because he was talking over two other posters who were correct in a manner of speaking, in what they were relating.

      Alas, I suppose it is time I quit trying to defend the Trinity on this board. As even though the board lays claim to Trinity theology, it's not upheld.

      Comment


      • #4
        I will delete the posts.

        As for AK doing the same thing...show me where, and I'll call him on it. I hold everyone to the same standard, and if you can point me to a post where he's using uncited material as his own, you better believe he and I will have a discussion.

        ...and about defending the Trinity: I'll be honest, Teke...sometimes you talk right over my head, and I'm supposed to be studying for the clergy. What you may see as Trinity theology not being upheld may simply be a reflection of a lack of other posters' knowledge, or a different understanding. Regardless of that, there's no need to shrink from doing what you think is necessary (in this case, defending Trinity theology). I'm just asking that you are circumspect in regards to making everything look above board. Defend the faith...but if someone has a question in regards to orginality...something that can be found as another's work on Google, for example...then cite them, even if you don't think it's necessary.

        Take care...and post away.
        θεοφιλε

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Theophilus View Post
          As for AK doing the same thing...show me where, and I'll call him on it. I hold everyone to the same standard, and if you can point me to a post where he's using uncited material as his own, you better believe he and I will have a discussion.
          I'd have to look them up in their books. The Schaefer's both did a lot of lectures which are on video. Since my church shows many of those for catechesis, some phrases you memorize after hearing them so many times. Same with patristics.

          ...and about defending the Trinity: I'll be honest, Teke...sometimes you talk right over my head, and I'm supposed to be studying for the clergy.
          I do get carried away sometimes.
          In your studies for clergy, surely you've addressed simple theology proper and misrepresentations of the Trinity. If so, you tell me if I'm misunderstanding AK, but he sounds to be putting forth a Sabellian type aka Modalism (three "modes" but one God) in what he's presented in the thread. IOW that there are ways in which God revealed Himself.
          What you may see as Trinity theology not being upheld may simply be a reflection of a lack of other posters' knowledge, or a different understanding.
          AK displays a postmodern theology IMO. He knows what he's doing. We've talked via PM in the past. That is how I know about his philosophical interest presently. We talked books (philosophical writers with Christian backgrounds) and Schaefer's.
          He might as well find out now how philosophy can conflict with Christian dogma (Trinity).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Teke View Post
            ... If so, you tell me if I'm misunderstanding AK, but he sounds to be putting forth a Sabellian type aka Modalism (three "modes" but one God) in what he's presented in the thread. IOW that there are ways in which God revealed Himself.
            We have studied the Trinity, and as part of my interest in apologetics, I've delved into the Trinity probably a bit more than some of my classmates...but if he is pushing modalism, it went right over my head. I'll have to go back and take another look at his posts.
            θεοφιλε

            Comment


            • #7
              I think I see what he is putting forth in the thread Kata Loukan started. It's called presuppositional apologetics which Monergism uses in explaining the transcendental argument of the "one and the many". I got a clue when he mentioned Van Til. It's basically Christian philosophy.
              IMO this is also were Aquinas went astray, but western theology adopted much of it in the systematic approach.

              Comment


              • #8
                Theophilus, what was in the post that was from Lossky? I thought I made sure nothing was.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I googled this phrase "...consubstantiality is as a descending hierarchy which realizes itself in a ceaseless flow of hypostases reciprocally reflecting each other."

                  This is what I got: http://books.google.com/books?id=dxq...um=1&ct=result


                  If I were a professor and you turned in that part of your post as a paper, and didn't cite Lossky...I'd give you an "F".

                  Whether you see it as plagiarism or not, we have to treat it as such.
                  θεοφιλε

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    That's it.....part of a sentence from Lossky....

                    I used my search engine and found numerous Orthodox church sites using the same language. Are you telling me they are all following Lossky? That's ridiculous. We all get F's then.

                    Thanks for the link on the book. But there are better books than that on the Trinity.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Teke View Post
                      That's it.....part of a sentence from Lossky....

                      I used my search engine and found numerous Orthodox church sites using the same language. Are you telling me they are all following Lossky? That's ridiculous. We all get F's then.

                      Thanks for the link on the book. But there are better books than that on the Trinity.
                      Teke, I'm not trying to impugn your honesty...I'm trying to protect the board...that's all. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me what you post, as long as a search on your post doesn't yield copyrighted material. This all started because someone had read Lossky's book, and recognized what he thought to be Lossky's material. Granted, the whole Orthodox church may be of one mind on this topic, and if questioned, say what Lossky's saying verbatim...if so, great.

                      However, if what you post is queried and mimics copyrighted material, the board is at risk.

                      So, bottom line...Are you going to comply with the board's wishes, or not?

                      θεοφιλε

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sure I'll comply. But I'm not going to google everything I post. Everything everyone says can be cited being said before by others, just takes some nit picking.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Teke View Post
                          Sure I'll comply. But I'm not going to google everything I post. Everything everyone says can be cited being said before by others, just takes some nit picking.
                          Good...I'd hate to see you go.

                          As for googling everything...well, Teke, I don't expect you to. However, I won't lie and say I won't be checking, as will other mods. If it looks suspect, I'll check it.

                          Are you being singled out? No...I do the same thing with everybody. Every poster has a unique style (I'm rather fond of the ellipsis, as you may have noticed...), and when a post sounds/reads different compared to the norm, it gets checked.

                          I don't always "catch" every instance, but someone usually does. In this case (and this is a compliment), you are typically so above the norm in regards to structure and vocabulary, I didn't think anything of what you posted. It was only because someone else had read those same phrases in a book he was using for a paper that anyone complained.

                          I consider this case closed, unless you have anything further to say.

                          Theophilus
                          θεοφιλε

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            "It was only because someone else had read those same phrases in a book he was using for a paper that anyone complained."

                            I would just say they should use a better book. For instance in English, The Way to Nicaea volumes by Behr. Or listen to some podcasts at Ancient Faith Radio on the internet. You'll repeatedly hear the same phrases in English.

                            If there are better phrases in English for the Trinity, I'd like to see them. To deviate from particular phrases would misconstrue meaning. In English that happens a lot as it is a constrictive language. In Greek, not so much.

                            AK has Nicholi Berdyaev on his reading list for classes. Another one of many Christian thinkers contemporary with Lossky, and using the same phrases.

                            IOW it's not so big a deal.

                            Peace

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You know what Teke

                              I need to say what I need to say.

                              1) You plagiarized......period
                              2) You look for justification
                              3) Your integrity on the board has been severely compromised
                              4) You never said you were sorry....huge in my book
                              5) You never asked for forgiveness....another blunder
                              6) You continue to think that you are like everyone else who writes books....PRIDE

                              Sorry Teke but Theo is more gracious than I am. I would have booted your butt out of here like cannon ball. You sinned and never acknowledged it. WOW says volumes to me about your character.

                              As the minister of this site I cannot let that go by without confronting your Pride and your self-righteousness......please don't start arguing with me Teke about "who am I to judge". This is about you, not me. This is about your soul and your ability to face others when others know you sinned
                              Amazzin

                              Obedience to God is more than a soldier obeying his commander. It is our grateful response to the Lover of our souls.

                              CHURCH: Where worship is enjoyed, not endured - Grace is preached, not legalism - And Christ is exalted, not religion!



                              Comment

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