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  • #31
    Originally posted by 2 Peter 2:20 View Post
    I agree that context is always key but...

    If we say that it was not for us (Christians) and only to the Apostles then what part of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John can we take? Wasn't He speaking to the Apostles 99% of the time? Where do you draw the line? That would mean that I would only go with Paul's writings since he is the apostle to the Gentiles...well, wait a minute...I'm not from Rome, or Galatia, or Ephesus, or Corinth so I guess these aren't for me either.

    Could it be that the reason these gifts aren't manifesting, as you say and which I don't agree, is because of a lack of faith?
    Remember, the Bible is a history book. You can't take the historical passages in the New Testament out of context. Christians can use the historical parts of scripture as a guide, but should not act like it is happening in the 21st century in the historical context, instead of the 1st century where it actually happened in context.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Ron Brown View Post
      Remember, the Bible is a history book. You can't take the historical passages in the New Testament out of context. Christians can use the historical parts of scripture as a guide, but should not act like it is happening in the 21st century in the historical context, instead of the 1st century where it actually happened in context.


      Very good explanation...I like it!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Ron Brown View Post
        Remember, the Bible is a history book.
        If the Word of God was a history book then it wouldn't at all be living, powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword. Calling it a "history book" makes it seem like something simply from the distant past. What is in the past is no longer living. It is done and it is gone. Therefore, if the Word of God is simply a history book as you claim . . . I guess I can simply toss it out as something that simply doesn't apply in any fashion to me.
        "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

        -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
          If the Word of God was a history book then it wouldn't at all be living, powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword. Calling it a "history book" makes it seem like something simply from the distant past. What is in the past is no longer living. It is done and it is gone. Therefore, if the Word of God is simply a history book as you claim . . . I guess I can simply toss it out as something that simply doesn't apply in any fashion to me.


          I'll let Ron speak for himself, but when I read his post, I never understood him to suggest that the Bible was strictly a history book only. I'm fairly certain that he knows that there is literally life contained in this book and that many things do indeed apply to us. I think the point he was making, one has to be able to recognize the historical context, then treat it as such.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by divaD View Post
            I'll let Ron speak for himself, but when I read his post, I never understood him to suggest that the Bible was strictly a history book only. I'm fairly certain that he knows that there is literally life contained in this book and that many things do indeed apply to us. I think the point he was making, one has to be able to recognize the historical context, then treat it as such.
            How does one in a definitive manner determine what is applicable and what is historical only?
            "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

            -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              I'll let Ron speak for himself, but when I read his post, I never understood him to suggest that the Bible was strictly a history book only. I'm fairly certain that he knows that there is literally life contained in this book and that many things do indeed apply to us. I think the point he was making, one has to be able to recognize the historical context, then treat it as such.
              Exactly.

              In Matthew chapter 24:2, when Christ was talking to the disciples about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, that would be destroyed by Titus and his Roman soldiers in 71 AD. Christ was speaking directly to the disciples about a real historical event, and he was not speaking directly to all Christians about their temples being destroyed no matter the century they lived in. The Bible is the living Word of God, but it is also a valid history book about the nation of Israel, and the messiah that would come out of this nation to save the entire World. You can't take the poetry in the OT and call it history for example, and you can't take the Historical events in the Bible and call them poetry or fiction for example. You must understand literature and grammar, if you want to read the Bible for all it's worth.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Theophilus View Post
                As a proud West Virginian, I have to ask if that is a little shot at the state?

                If so, what would like from me for Christmas? Rattlesnake, Copperhead, or Water Moccasin?


                And as a proud West Virginian myself I would never take a shot at my home state

                Just stating the facts...

                What part of WV?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ron Brown View Post
                  Exactly.

                  In Matthew chapter 24:2, when Christ was talking to the disciples about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, that would be destroyed by Titus and his Roman soldiers in 71 AD. Christ was speaking directly to the disciples about a real historical event, and he was not speaking directly to all Christians about their temples being destroyed no matter the century they lived in. The Bible is the living Word of God, but it is also a valid history book about the nation of Israel, and the messiah that would come out of this nation to save the entire World. You can't take the poetry in the OT and call it history for example, and you can't take the Historical events in the Bible and call them poetry or fiction for example. You must understand literature and grammar, if you want to read the Bible for all it's worth.
                  What about when Jesus stated that those who follow Him must take up their cross? Is that applicable or historical, and what scriptural evidence do you use to support that?
                  "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                  -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                    How does one in a definitive manner determine what is applicable and what is historical only?
                    Exactly, How does one know where to draw the line in the sand? That opens it up for too much interpretation...IMO.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ron Brown View Post
                      Exactly.

                      In Matthew chapter 24:2, when Christ was talking to the disciples about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, that would be destroyed by Titus and his Roman soldiers in 71 AD. Christ was speaking directly to the disciples about a real historical event, and he was not speaking directly to all Christians about their temples being destroyed no matter the century they lived in. The Bible is the living Word of God, but it is also a valid history book about the nation of Israel, and the messiah that would come out of this nation to save the entire World. You can't take the poetry in the OT and call it history for example, and you can't take the Historical events in the Bible and call them poetry or fiction for example. You must understand literature and grammar, if you want to read the Bible for all it's worth.
                      I was waiting for someone to play the Matt. 24 "card"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by 2 Peter 2:20 View Post
                        I was waiting for someone to play the Matt. 24 "card"


                        I just used it as one example of a historical event in the NT?

                        Should I have used Joshua's battle in Jericho instead? Or The Exodus of the nation of Israel instead? Or the crucifixion of Christ instead for a historical event? What is the best historical event to use then? Thanks.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Ron Brown View Post


                          I just used it as one example of a historical event in the NT?

                          Should I have used Joshua's battle in Jericho instead? Or The Exodus of the nation of Israel instead? Or the crucifixion of Christ instead for a historical event? What is the best historical event to use then? Thanks.
                          However, we can look at such accounts and place an actual historical date with the event and conclude that it is indeed historical. What about statements such as those in Mark 16 or in Luke 10? What about such statements as those who follow Jesus taking up their crosses? How do we definitively state that these are either applicable or historical?
                          "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                          -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Ron Brown View Post
                            Exactly.

                            In Matthew chapter 24:2, when Christ was talking to the disciples about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, that would be destroyed by Titus and his Roman soldiers in 71 AD. Christ was speaking directly to the disciples about a real historical event, and he was not speaking directly to all Christians about their temples being destroyed no matter the century they lived in. The Bible is the living Word of God, but it is also a valid history book about the nation of Israel, and the messiah that would come out of this nation to save the entire World. You can't take the poetry in the OT and call it history for example, and you can't take the Historical events in the Bible and call them poetry or fiction for example. You must understand literature and grammar, if you want to read the Bible for all it's worth.
                            Greetings Ron,

                            This is true...but do you not find spiritual application to the church throughout every age? When Christ was speaking directly to His disciples (Olivet Discourse) is there no spiritual truths to be learned by the church in every generation? Do you believe that the Old Testament conceals what the New Testament reveals? In other words there are many historical signs, and symbols that must be spiritually discerned by the church. For instance, the OT temple pointing us to the NT temple which we are.

                            1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

                            Do you see no spiritual application for the church in time with the literal destruction of the temple in Jerusalem?

                            It is true when we read and study Scripture that we must consider the audience and the context, however it is equally true that, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2Ti 3:16,17). Therefore all of Scripture, even the historical parts have some literal, and some spiritual application for every believer throughout human history.

                            When Scripture unambiguously declares "these signs shall follow them that believe", I believe it means everyone who believes. Since these signs would make no sense literally discerned, it is apparently speaking of spiritual fulfillment. When we understand that Christ is not speaking literally, but symbolically then we understand that every true believer throughout history has indeed possessed these signs.

                            Many Blessings,
                            RW

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 2 Peter 2:20 View Post
                              And as a proud West Virginian myself I would never take a shot at my home state

                              Just stating the facts...

                              What part of WV?
                              All is forgiven, then (not that I was really upset...You, boy, put those snakes away!)

                              I live in Jackson Co...and you?

                              (OP...sorry for the slight derail...)
                              θεοφιλε

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                                Greetings Ron,

                                This is true...but do you not find spiritual application to the church throughout every age? When Christ was speaking directly to His disciples (Olivet Discourse) is there no spiritual truths to be learned by the church in every generation? Do you believe that the Old Testament conceals what the New Testament reveals? In other words there are many historical signs, and symbols that must be spiritually discerned by the church. For instance, the OT temple pointing us to the NT temple which we are.

                                1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

                                Do you see no spiritual application for the church in time with the literal destruction of the temple in Jerusalem?

                                It is true when we read and study Scripture that we must consider the audience and the context, however it is equally true that, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2Ti 3:16,17). Therefore all of Scripture, even the historical parts have some literal, and some spiritual application for every believer throughout human history.

                                When Scripture unambiguously declares "these signs shall follow them that believe", I believe it means everyone who believes. Since these signs would make no sense literally discerned, it is apparently speaking of spiritual fulfillment. When we understand that Christ is not speaking literally, but symbolically then we understand that every true believer throughout history has indeed possessed these signs.

                                Many Blessings,
                                RW
                                Some things in the Bible were a 1 time historical event.

                                The Genesis flood, a 1 time historical event.

                                The exodus of the nation of Israel, a 1 time event in history.

                                The crucifixion of Christ, a one time event in history.

                                The everybody hearing the gospel in their own language and dialect through the tongues of Acts chapter 2, a one time event in history.

                                etc....................................

                                They were all 1 time historical events, but we can take much from these historical events as 21st century Christians, and apply what we learn of them to our daily walk with Christ.

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