Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Sola Scriptura?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
    Some info on this guy and his "church".

    His userprofile lists his homepage as The Maronite Catholic Church.

    They claim to be an unbroken lineage the original "church" of Antioch with, founded by Peter and Paul.

    There homepage states:
    "Their loyalty to the church and to the Pope led to persecutions over the centuries, and the Maronites eventually moved to Lebanon. The Maronite Catholic Church preserves the one, holy, catholic and apostolic faith, administers the seven sacraments, adheres to all Papal rulings and is characterized by devotion to the Blessed Sacrament and to Mary, the Blessed Mother."

    So now you can get a better feel for his use of "the church" and pro-Maryism apologetics.

    Now, back to the original Op and why we as Protestants believe in the importance of Sola Scriptura.
    I figured the word "Catholic" would be in there somewhere. Thanks David.
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Literalist-Luke
      Wrong. They didn't need the Church - they were the Church. I defy you to show me anywhere in the Scriptures where it says that, prior to Paul's arrival, they didn't know how to interpret the Scriptures.
      Ministry of Apollos, Acts18:24-26, where Priscilla and Aquila explained the way of God more accurately to him.

      The Pharisees unlike the Sadducees and Karaites believed in the authority of the Oral Torah,(Mishnah). This Oral Torah was to help them interpret the Written Torah. Jesus however doesn't tell the crowds to obey the Sadducees or Karaties, he tells them to do everything the scribes and Pharisees taught them,Matthew23:2.

      The Sadducees and Karaites believed in only the authority of the Written Torah, similar to the protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

      I believe the Sadducess only accepted the Written Torah(first five books), where as the Karaites accepted the whole Jewish Tanakh.
      Last edited by Jerome1; Sep 10th 2008, 12:01 PM. Reason: Grammar

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Jerome1 View Post
        Ministry of Apollos, Acts18:24-26, where Priscilla and Aquila explained the way of God more accurately to him.

        The Pharisees unlike the Sadducees and Karaites believed in the authority of the Oral Torah,(Mishnah). This Oral Torah was to help them interpret the Written Torah. Jesus however doesn't tell to crowds to obey the Sadducees or Karaties, he tells them to do everything the scribes and Pharisees taught them,Matthew23:2.

        The Sadducees and Karaites believed in only the authority of the Written Torah, similar to the protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

        I believe the Sadducess however only accepted the Written Torah(first five books), where as the Karaites accepted the whole Jewish Tanakh.
        This does not say that people did not understand how to interpret scripture. In fact, Yeshua showed them by example that their interpretation of the keeping of Sabbath was flawed. I have absolutely no trouble with oral tradition...so long as it does not conflict with scripture.

        God Bless!
        II Timothy 2:15
        Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
        Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
          This does not say that people did not understand how to interpret scripture. In fact, Yeshua showed them by example that their interpretation of the keeping of Sabbath was flawed. I have absolutely no trouble with oral tradition...so long as it does not conflict with scripture.

          God Bless!
          Yes it does, the Pharisees and Sadducees had many disagreements based on the interpretation of the written law.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Jerome1 View Post
            Yes it does, the Pharisees and Sadducees had many disagreements based on the interpretation of the written law.
            The text does not say that people don't understand God's word, it simply says to submit to authority. There is no mandatory religious authority now but there are those godly men and women to whom I have submitted. Paul speaks concerning this type of submission, even to the local authorities. What Yeshua DID say is that He would send the Holy Spirit to teach us.

            God Bless!
            II Timothy 2:15
            Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
            Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
              The text does not say that people don't understand God's word, it simply says to submit to authority. There is no mandatory religious authority now but there are those godly men and women to whom I have submitted. Paul speaks concerning this type of submission, even to the local authorities. What Yeshua DID say is that He would send the Holy Spirit to teach us.

              God Bless!
              The text does say that in 2Peter3:14-18?
              Last edited by Jerome1; Sep 10th 2008, 03:01 PM. Reason: Included correct chapter

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Jerome1 View Post
                The text does say that in 2Peter14-18?
                That's not even close to talking about what you're implying. That is referring to the Gospel. It never says that these things that 'are not cunningly devised fables' have not been written down. I submit that the things that they followed, they wrote down for us. Let's take a look at that scripture.

                2 Peter 14-18
                14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

                16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

                So, let's take a look at a few things. How would Peter 'be careful to ensure' our reminder after his death? Because he dictated it to Mark; making a written record of it. Then in verse 18 he speaks of a voice coming from heaven. Do you think he may have made sure that was written down for us? (Mark 9:7-8)
                II Timothy 2:15
                Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

                Comment


                • #53
                  Sorry, i left out the chapter.

                  2Peter3:14-18

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Jerome1 View Post
                    he tells them to do everything the scribes and Pharisees taught them,Matthew23:2.
                    As if the scribes and Pharisees were doing a bangup job of interpreting the Scriptures themselves....
                    ----------------------------------------------
                    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                      As if the scribes and Pharisees were doing a bangup job of interpreting the Scriptures themselves....
                      Christ would not have told the crowds to obey them if their teachings were in error. What the Jews failed to recognize was that Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. I also believe tradition holds that at least some of the Pharisees converted to christianity including Saint Pauls teacher Gamaliel and Nicodemus.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Jerome1 View Post
                        Christ would not have told the crowds to obey them if their teachings were in error.
                        In your zeal to assign undeserved authority to sinners (like the Pope) in the "Church" as having authority over other believers, you have completely missed the point that Jesus was trying to make when He said this.
                        Originally posted by Jerome1 View Post
                        What the Jews failed to recognize was that Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. I also believe tradition holds that at least some of the Pharisees converted to christianity including Saint Pauls teacher Gamaliel and Nicodemus.
                        Yes, some of them recognized that Jesus was the Messiah in the end. Most of them, however, did not.
                        ----------------------------------------------
                        When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Jerome1 View Post
                          Sorry, i left out the chapter.

                          2Peter3:14-18
                          2 Peter 3:14-18
                          14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
                          17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
                          To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

                          Exactly how is this saying that scripture can not be understood? It simply say that some things that PAUL writes are hard to understand, not impossible. The key is not to be untaught and unstable. We are to study to show ourselves approved as the verse in my sig states.

                          God Bless!
                          II Timothy 2:15
                          Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                          Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Literalist-Luke
                            In your zeal to assign undeserved authority to sinners (like the Pope) in the "Church" as having authority over other believers, you have completely missed the point that Jesus was trying to make when He said this.
                            You believe God kept his written word free from error, why couldn't he also do it with his oral instructions given to Moses on Mount Sinai?

                            If Jesus told people to obey false teachings, wouldn't that be akin to tempting them to sin, which God cannot do,1James1:13?

                            What was the point Jesus was trying to make when he told the crowds to obey everything that the Pharisees and scribes taught them? Pharisees and scribes who recognized the authority of the Oral Torah.

                            Originally posted by Studyin'2Show
                            Exactly how is this saying that scripture can not be understood? It simply say that some things that PAUL writes are hard to understand, not impossible. The key is not to be untaught and unstable. We are to study to show ourselves approved as the verse in my sig states.
                            It doesn't say it can't be understood, but that it is hard to understand, and that the ignorant and unstable twist the meaning to their own destruction. It doesn't just say that what PAUL writes is hard to understand, and people twist the meaning of. It also states they twist the meaning of the other scriptures.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Jerome1 View Post
                              You believe God kept his written word free from error, why couldn't he also do it with his oral instructions given to Moses on Mount Sinai?

                              If Jesus told people to obey false teachings, wouldn't that be akin to tempting them to sin, which God cannot do,1James1:13?

                              What was the point Jesus was trying to make when he told the crowds to obey everything that the Pharisees and scribes taught them? Pharisees and scribes who recognized the authority of the Oral Torah.
                              The point was, when the Phairisees and Scribes taught the Torah, the Torah was true and correct. Their problem was when they stopped teaching scripture; but their mouths kept moving onto other things unscriptural.

                              Jesus Himself said that the OT writings spoke of and pointed to Himself. Of course Jesus would have taught that the OT Scriptures spoken by the Phairsees and Scribes was true.

                              That didn't give the Phairsees and Scribes carte-blanche authority that everything else they say (just like popes and bishops and priests) were true and authoritative...it wasn't.

                              The Holy Spirit in conjunction with the Written Word; is our teacher; and teaches perfectly. When we start added external teachings and pronouncements and other doctrines into the mix 'as if' it were from God; that is where the problem arrises; whether from the Pharisees, or the RCC, or Mohammed, or Joseph Smith, or Ron Wienland, or the next proclaimed infallible expert who comes down the pike.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                                The point was, when the Phairisees and Scribes taught the Torah, the Torah was true and correct. Their problem was when they stopped teaching scripture; but their mouths kept moving onto other things unscriptural.

                                Jesus Himself said that the OT writings spoke of and pointed to Himself. Of course Jesus would have taught that the OT Scriptures spoken by the Phairsees and Scribes was true.

                                That didn't give the Phairsees and Scribes carte-blanche authority that everything else they say (just like popes and bishops and priests) were true and authoritative...it wasn't.

                                The Holy Spirit in conjunction with the Written Word; is our teacher; and teaches perfectly. When we start added external teachings and pronouncements and other doctrines into the mix 'as if' it were from God; that is where the problem arrises; whether from the Pharisees, or the RCC, or Mohammed, or Joseph Smith, or Ron Wienland, or the next proclaimed infallible expert who comes down the pike.
                                Thank you.
                                ----------------------------------------------
                                When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X