Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Do you have proof?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Do you have proof?

    Hey everybody,

    I'm new here. I'm a member on another message board where the subject of "how do you know for sure God exists?" came up. This discussion was had w/several atheists so of course their mission was to basically blaspheme. Sad. Anyway, most atheists come at me w/several statements/questions. There's no uniqueness (at least not in my experience) when conversing w/an atheist. Those questions are: how do you know for sure that God exists (no one has seen Him), how do you know the bible hasn't been tampered with, how do you know heaven exists, and how do you know for sure you're going?

    So, I read my bible and study it so I'm equipped to answer questions. Not all of course, I'm still a work in progress. I know of several scriptures to answer those questions. I'm wondering what scriptures other christians use to answer those questions. For atheists, simply saying "because I have faith" isn't good enough. And, it's not good enough for me . . . especially since God has given me my own sword to answer the questions. When I'm done sharing scripture, most atheists usually simply say they don't believe the bible is the true and inspired word of God. Of course I provide the scripture saying it is but, you either believe or you don't.

    Please share. . .

  • #2
    Yes, I have "proof."

    But, before I reveal what it is I would like to ask them "do they have proof He doesn't exist?"

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Krav View Post
      Yes, I have "proof."

      But, before I reveal what it is I would like to ask them "do they have proof He doesn't exist?"

      ....to which most of them will reply that you can't disprove a negative (which is actually not true, because if you prove the positive, then you have disproven the negative, but that's beside the point).

      You know, it's very difficult to argue with an atheist, because they completely discount the Spiritual aspect of things. They believe that this physical world is the absolute, and that there is no spiritual world beyond this. In the truest sense of the word, they are what the Bible deems the natural man, which the Bible actually forewarns us about their condition:

      1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

      The Bible also says that the fool says in his heart "There is no God." Notice the phrase in his heart. According to the Bible, this is not primarily a decision of the intellect, but of the heart. The atheist does not believe in God because he does not want to believe in God. He has determined to renounce God, and has formed his intellect to correspond.

      The Bible tells us that there is more than adequate evidence to prove God's existence, including our own conscience. I, personally, have never talked to an atheist who is not vehemently passionate about disproving God's existence. For a lot of them, the argument stirs up great emotions and fervency.

      There are atheists that devote their entire lives and careers to disproving the existence of God, calling it a myth and stupidity, and there is a real animosity towards those who believe in God. It is my firm beliuef that the reason why these people get so worked up about disproving God's existence is because, deep inside, there is something that is telling them otherwise. If someone were to come up and try to argue that Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny exists, most people would just laugh it off, and walk away....they wouldn't even waste their energy. Try to tell an atheist that God is real, though, and things get very heated.

      Also, I don't know about you guys, but in my experience, it is always the God of the Bible that is being debated...I don't see many atheists arguing with Hindus or Muslims.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Krav View Post
        Yes, I have "proof."

        But, before I reveal what it is I would like to ask them "do they have proof He doesn't exist?"
        That's an easy one for them Krav. They say "you can't see him, touch him, and no one has seen him."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Welder4Christ View Post
          ....to which most of them will reply that you can't disprove a negative
          Right. Lol. I've heard that before too.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by MyGod View Post
            That's an easy one for them Krav. They say "you can't see him, touch him, and no one has seen him."
            The same can be said about electricity, so does that not exist either? When we get a shock we feel the physical reaction of our muscles. When we turn on a light it is the physical reaction of the element getting hot. We can see the by products of what electricity does, just like we see the by products of what God does and has done.
            I am a Christian man in the Devil's land, spreading the gospel man to man.
            Have you laid your burdens down?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Welder4Christ View Post
              ....to which most of them will reply that you can't disprove a negative (which is actually not true, because if you prove the positive, then you have disproven the negative, but that's beside the point).

              You know, it's very difficult to argue with an atheist, because they completely discount the Spiritual aspect of things. They believe that this physical world is the absolute, and that there is no spiritual world beyond this. In the truest sense of the word, they are what the Bible deems the natural man, which the Bible actually forewarns us about their condition:

              1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

              The Bible also says that the fool says in his heart "There is no God." Notice the phrase in his heart. According to the Bible, this is not primarily a decision of the intellect, but of the heart. The atheist does not believe in God because he does not want to believe in God. He has determined to renounce God, and has formed his intellect to correspond.

              The Bible tells us that there is more than adequate evidence to prove God's existence, including our own conscience. I, personally, have never talked to an atheist who is not vehemently passionate about disproving God's existence. For a lot of them, the argument stirs up great emotions and fervency.

              There are atheists that devote their entire lives and careers to disproving the existence of God, calling it a myth and stupidity, and there is a real animosity towards those who believe in God. It is my firm beliuef that the reason why these people get so worked up about disproving God's existence is because, deep inside, there is something that is telling them otherwise. If someone were to come up and try to argue that Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny exists, most people would just laugh it off, and walk away....they wouldn't even waste their energy. Try to tell an atheist that God is real, though, and things get very heated.

              Also, I don't know about you guys, but in my experience, it is always the God of the Bible that is being debated...I don't see many atheists arguing with Hindus or Muslims.
              You're right. I'll let you know what scriptures I use. I was waiting to see if anyone else used 'em.

              #1, 1 John 5:13 - "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." This scripture proves that we can know that we have eternal life and not just place the guessing game.

              #2, Romans 1:20 - "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." (If you clearly see something, you know it's there. Imo. So, this scripture is saying that non-believers are without excuse because they clearly see creation therefore proving God's existence. . . He (including the trinity, which is what the Godhead means) created them.

              Oh, also:

              2 Peter 1:20 - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (Disproves their viewpoint that the bible can be interpreted any way).

              2 Peter 1:21 - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (Disproving their belief that men wrote the bible).


              Psalms 12 - The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (Disproving their belief that God's word has been tampered with).


              In the end, they either believe it or don't. My experience with atheists is they just end up saying, "Well, I don't believe in the bible." Pretty much they're stumped and have nothing else to say.

              I also share with them how the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth at one time in history. Jesus is God. So, if people saw Jesus, they saw God thereby proving His existence.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MyGod View Post
                Hey everybody,

                I'm new here. I'm a member on another message board where the subject of "how do you know for sure God exists?" came up. This discussion was had w/several atheists so of course their mission was to basically blaspheme. Sad. Anyway, most atheists come at me w/several statements/questions. There's no uniqueness (at least not in my experience) when conversing w/an atheist. Those questions are: how do you know for sure that God exists (no one has seen Him), how do you know the bible hasn't been tampered with, how do you know heaven exists, and how do you know for sure you're going?

                So, I read my bible and study it so I'm equipped to answer questions. Not all of course, I'm still a work in progress. I know of several scriptures to answer those questions. I'm wondering what scriptures other christians use to answer those questions. For atheists, simply saying "because I have faith" isn't good enough. And, it's not good enough for me . . . especially since God has given me my own sword to answer the questions. When I'm done sharing scripture, most atheists usually simply say they don't believe the bible is the true and inspired word of God. Of course I provide the scripture saying it is but, you either believe or you don't.

                Please share. . .
                Using the bible to prove the bible is circular reasoning (they say) I image you have heard one that...yet there is plenty of outside proof showing the bible IS true! They have no objections to using a math book to prove math is true...or a science book to prove science is true...or just about anything else...but when it comes to the bible that isn't good enough. Well fine...as I said there is plenty of historical, archeological proof that the bible is true, plus fulfilled prophecies.

                I am not feeling very well..so I am going to give you some links that will help you with those questions you have plus the outside evidence the bible is true.

                CARM is a good one: http://www.carm.org/
                check out 'answers for seekers' to start with.

                Christian think tank: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/

                Bible history will give you the historical and archeological evidence: http://www.bible-history.com/

                Fulfilled Prophecies and Other Evidence that the Bible is the Word of God:http://www.matthewmcgee.org/prophesy.html

                The key to witnessing to atheist:...(oh by the way they actually prove the bible is true by fulfilling the verses posted in Welder4Christ's post... )

                Is know when to shake the dust off your feet and move on...don't cast pearls before swines BUT realize some are pushing you hoping you really can answer their hard questions. Some will try very hard to make you angry too...if you strike back (don't turn the other cheek) you have lost them for sure...if you respond as you should:

                Matthew 5:43-45

                Teaching about Love for Enemies
                43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike.


                You might find that one that sees you are truly following Christ and wants to know more...the mocking and attacking our faith IS a test! If you respond logically and don't get upset they will be impressed...too many who talk to atheist fail this and thereby fail being a good witnesses. The tares are here for a reason! Remember that...

                God bless
                "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TrustingFollower View Post
                  The same can be said about electricity, so does that not exist either? When we get a shock we feel the physical reaction of our muscles. When we turn on a light it is the physical reaction of the element getting hot. We can see the by products of what electricity does, just like we see the by products of what God does and has done.
                  Yes, that is true, but some of them would say that because electricity can be measured and is subject to physical laws, that it can be proven, whereas God cannot. Most of them just chalk up God's work as natural phenomena, and they certainly don't believe in miracles.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MyGod View Post
                    I also share with them how the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth at one time in history. Jesus is God. So, if people saw Jesus, they saw God thereby proving His existence.
                    These are great Scriptures to use.....and don't forget to pray that the Holy Spirit might work on their conscience through those Scriptures, after you've talked to them. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit will convict people of righteousness and judgement.

                    I highlihgted the quote above because I wanted to comment on the fact that Jesus is God. Some atheists will ask you, if there is a God, how do we know that Christ is the only way to God. Actually, it's pretty simple. Jesus tells us:

                    John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me

                    If they take it further, and ask why, point out the fact that Jesus is God, and therefore, He is the only way to God the Father. He is the second person of the Godhead, and the only access to God is through God Himself.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                      Using the bible to prove the bible is circular reasoning (they say) I image you have heard one that...yet there is plenty of outside proof showing the bible IS true! They have no objections to using a math book to prove math is true...or a science book to prove science is true...or just about anything else...but when it comes to the bible that isn't good enough. Well fine...as I said there is plenty of historical, archeological proof that the bible is true, plus fulfilled prophecies.

                      I am not feeling very well..so I am going to give you some links that will help you with those questions you have plus the outside evidence the bible is true.

                      CARM is a good one: http://www.carm.org/
                      check out 'answers for seekers' to start with.

                      Christian think tank: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/

                      Bible history will give you the historical and archeological evidence: http://www.bible-history.com/

                      Fulfilled Prophecies and Other Evidence that the Bible is the Word of God:http://www.matthewmcgee.org/prophesy.html

                      The key to witnessing to atheist:...(oh by the way they actually prove the bible is true by fulfilling the verses posted in Welder4Christ's post... )

                      Is know when to shake the dust off your feet and move on...don't cast pearls before swines BUT realize some are pushing you hoping you really can answer their hard questions. Some will try very hard to make you angry too...if you strike back (don't turn the other cheek) you have lost them for sure...if you respond as you should:

                      Matthew 5:43-45

                      Teaching about Love for Enemies
                      43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike.

                      You might find that one that sees you are truly following Christ and wants to know more...the mocking and attacking our faith IS a test! If you respond logically and don't get upset they will be impressed...too many who talk to atheist fail this and thereby fail being a good witnesses. The tares are here for a reason! Remember that...

                      God bless
                      Thanks. I'll check out the links you provided. I didn't really have questions about how to witness to an atheist though. I know how. I was wondering what other christians do. Reason being, I asked my sister and she wasn't able to provide proof (scripturally). That kinda shook me a bit because she's just as much a bible student as I am and we were raised in the same environment, our dad is a pastor. So, I was curious about others. But thanks!

                      P.S. Hope you feel better. I'm not either, I have lupus and fibro.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Welder4Christ View Post
                        These are great Scriptures to use.....and don't forget to pray that the Holy Spirit might work on their conscience through those Scriptures, after you've talked to them. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit will convict people of righteousness and judgement.

                        I highlihgted the quote above because I wanted to comment on the fact that Jesus is God. Some atheists will ask you, if there is a God, how do we know that Christ is the only way to God. Actually, it's pretty simple. Jesus tells us:

                        John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me

                        If they take it further, and ask why, point out the fact that Jesus is God, and therefore, He is the only way to God the Father. He is the second person of the Godhead, and the only access to God is through God Himself.
                        Amen. Already did it. Lol. You know what's so funny is, after you've shared all that with them, they have nothing else to say so they just end it with "Well, I don't believe the bible should be taken literally, it's just a book with fables and parables." That's when I'm done. I planted, someone will water, and prayerfully God will give the increase. Hopefully, for their sake.

                        Honestly, I think atheists want to know. They want to be convinced because deep down their conscience is telling them there is a God. They're just rebellious and many of them hate God (but are too chicken to admit it). They feel God didn't do something (whatever that is) for them and owes them. They have no understanding of how significant the cross is. God couldn't do any more than offer His own son as payment for their sins. To that, they usually say "why should I have to pay for my sins?" Lol. Somebody's gotta do it. It's been done. It is finished!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TrustingFollower View Post
                          The same can be said about electricity, so does that not exist either? When we get a shock we feel the physical reaction of our muscles. When we turn on a light it is the physical reaction of the element getting hot. We can see the by products of what electricity does, just like we see the by products of what God does and has done.
                          Exactly. I used air as an example. We don't see it but we don't stop breathing. She said "yeah, but I am breathing so that's proof that air exists."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This reminds me... I need to write an article on "the reason why I believe in everything". If and when I ever get around to writing it, it will be a long one. Perhaps this will be the first part.

                            Anyway, your 1st question.

                            Why do I believe in God?

                            Basically its the only way anything makes sense. I'm a computer programmer by profession - things have to make logical sense to me, and I analyze everything (my critical thinking tends to go nuts sometimes).

                            Eventually everyone asks the question, how did we get here? Well for me there are 2 possibilities:

                            1. Evolution
                            2. God created us

                            Option 1 doesn't make sense. For sure this is hotly debated, but I have many reasons for this. How can evolution create new information? How can evolution account for vast transitions? (ie. fish to land, land to air, etc). How could evolution have created such beautiful human beings? How could evolution have given us two pairs of eyes that are almost exactly symetrical? The list goes on and on, and there are lots of web sites that debate both sides. But even more than that, how does evolution account for the fact that I can play the piano? How does evolution account for the fact that I find sunsets beautiful? It just doesn't make sense. I'm not even getting into the big bang and how some mud must have been zapped to create the first microbes. Life cannot spontaneously appear. Also I'm fully aware there is natural selection that will lead to variation within a species. This is easily demonstratable. What has never been demonstrated is natural selection that leads to creation of a new species.

                            That leaves option 2. Now I am slightly open to the possibility that God used some "evolution-like" process to create us, but I tend more to believe the literal biblical creation story. Look at all the beauty in nature. Look at all the complexity in nature. Something had to have designed it all. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

                            So that's the foundation. There must be a God. On to the next question.

                            So which God do I believe in? Obviously the one that created the earth. So why believe the bible is true? Well this I am still exploring, but I am fairly convinced the bible is the truth. The bible is many things, but a large part of it is a history book. Specific things in the bible have been confirmed by outside sources, other history books, etc. I'm not an expert in this area, but if anyone is sincere in their questions, they should do there own research. It is out there.

                            So the bible is a history book. People wrote down events that happened so it wouldn't be forgotten. Some of these events were so amazing that people endeavored to make sure the history would not be forgotten. So how do we know it is true? Well at a certain point, it does involve faith. However look at it this way. How do we know anything about history? How do we know who Napoleon was? Who Arisistotle was? Well, people wrote it down so we could read it now. Do we believe those people existed? Yes. So why don't people believe the history in the bible? I don't know.

                            People always ask for a different source to verify the bible. Well, really the bible has its own 2nd and 3rd sources. The bible is not one book. It is actually about 66 books (I think) written by various authors. The bible is completely internally consistent. So we have these different authors recording history, writing prophecy, some in the same time periods, some in different time periods, spanning thousands of years. And it is all consistent, and makes sense! And now you're telling me the bible is not true?

                            You know what the problem is. No one reads the bible! (Well almost no one). And you know what the second problem is? No one understands the bible! It is not an easy book to read. Most Christians only hear the bible maybe a couple times at church each week. We just get by on what the minister at church says. So how would we expect a non-christian to believe the bible is true if they haven't even read it! (Please correct me if your friend has read it). Now perhaps I exaggerate.

                            So, on to your 3rd question. Has the bible been tampered with. And the answer is possibly. Christians believe the bible is in-errant. And it is. In the original manuscripts. The King James version has errors. The NIV has errors. Don't believe me? Look at all the footnotes in any bible you pick up. You can find stuff like such and such meant something here and maybe something else, etc.

                            So what can you do? Well, look at as many bible translations as possible. biblegateway.com is a powerful tool. Make sure you look at the literal translations, like Young's or Strong's concordant. If you really want to, learn greek and hebrew.

                            So for me, through logic and critical thinking, I believe I have made a case that God must exist, and the bible is truth, but there may be different translation errors in each version of the bible, so you have to be careful.

                            The tricky part now is to read it and understand it

                            Enjoy,
                            Legoman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MyGod View Post
                              Thanks. I'll check out the links you provided. I didn't really have questions about how to witness to an atheist though. I know how. I was wondering what other christians do. Reason being, I asked my sister and she wasn't able to provide proof (scripturally). That kinda shook me a bit because she's just as much a bible student as I am and we were raised in the same environment, our dad is a pastor. So, I was curious about others. But thanks!

                              P.S. Hope you feel better. I'm not either, I have lupus and fibro.
                              I am sorry you have those illnesses. I am just sick...have some stomach bug or something.

                              Anyway I think you missed what I was saying on my post...the bible proves God exist, which was your question. I was trying to show you how you can prove to the atheist that the bible is reliable and is the Word of God...how can it be the Word of God if God doesn't exist?

                              The other proof is this:
                              Romans 1:18
                              19For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
                              21Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. 22Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.

                              God puts the knowledge of Himself in everyone...as the verse says, its instinct to realize there is something greater then we are...that there is a God running everything. And it goes on to say the very earth and sky and space is proof of God. Anyone studying these things should know through simple common sense none of this just all happened by accident.

                              For instance the sun is exactly the right distance from us...a tad bit closer and the earth would burn up...a bit further away and we would freeze. The fact we even have this sun in the first place is in itself amazing! Everything is placed just right for us to even live on this planet. Its all amazing if people would just think about it...instead some follow the verse from 21 through 22...their minds become dark and confused...

                              God bless
                              "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X