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  • Discussion Personal Convictions

    I lot of people have claimed that I confuse them regarding what I observe. So I will try to explain it in a short manner. I also welcome others whether proponent or opponent to share what they know; for I definitely want to know more myself.

    I have seen the messages concerning me and my manner of posting. My motives have never been hidden or covert. I have been as frank , tactful, and loving as I can be. I understand that most purposely avoid me as seen by the private messages. However, what can I do about that, and is that even my concern, no (it does hurt to some degree, but I have not allowed the devil to trick me into being offended).

    What I know has been learned over a course of seventeen years. Half was learned from instruction via pastors, seminary school, and friends. The other half was learned from personal study and research. All of these means are still continuing as I search for an even greater relationship with Yahweh.

    I do not observed Torah in the manner of letter and by means of my own human strenght and efforts (carnality). It does not produce any legal righteousness for me or declare me not guilty before God. It does not prove me better, wiser, or stronger than any other believer who does not agree with my observances. It does however prove my efforts to love and be holy towards God in a personal relationship, fellowship and communion. Moreover, this is a personal matter that is between God and the observer, which does not need the approval of any other believer.

    I believe the confusion surrounding the Torah is a the greatest work of confusion and deception by Satan. I say this because of the manifestation of confustion and chaos in the Body of Christ. What is the mark of confusion, but the existence of various denominations and doctrinal schools of thought. What is the mark of chaos, but the existence of sin sitting comfortably in a lot of churches without the extreme pressure to be holy as He is holy.

    I think that all believers should have a personal understanding of Torah whether one observes it or not is paramount necessity. I see it as a reasonable attempt to understand Yeshua's character and intentions towards His people.

    I personally see the the Torah in a new light because I challenge myself to know what Torah was. I now see Torah as it always was, spiritual and holy. It was entrusted to mankind in the flesh, but it did not fit, for mankind was totally corrupted by carnality and iniquity.
    The Torah should be viewed in a spiritual sense both in the practical and application manner. They are not laws in the same manner as most think of laws as deterrents against specific actions. The Torah are Yahweh's instructions for holy and spiritual living. This was not possible in the first, until the coming of the Holy Spirit.


    Here are a few examples of the Torah break down:
    The commandments being the Ten commandments are vows and mark of our covenant between Yahweh and the believer. Any breech of these are considered covenant violations. Ex. The thou shall not do ten things. These are marked upon our heart as a means of showing how we relate to Yahweh. Not adhering to the vows is an act of adultery.

    The judgments are what define our conduct, fellowship, and attitude towards our brother. Ex. Not charging our Christian brother interest on a loan. He is family, right. Spirit should be thicker than blood. How much this is not seen in even how most relate to each other on a lot of forums. We say we are Christians, but we do not say we are brothers. Why? We are ignored of the judgments that would expose the truth of sin concerning our ill heart's towards the truth our brotherhood and manner of relating.

    The statutes are what define the manner of worship and fellowship with God in the performance of our spiritual duties. Ex. Being a living sacrifice as a burnt offering towards God which typifies a specific manner of conduct necessary to follow through and complete a specific spiritual and holy duty. The bullock defining our manner of work ethic and definition of duty, the lamb defining our attitude and mindset towards others, and the dove defining our mannerisms towards God and His people.

    The testimonies are the examples of what Yahweh did and will continue to do as a manner of pattern and relationships. Ex. How God took the children of Israel out of Egypt.Will and does God still deliver us from our personal Egypts today. Has he done it before? What does the testimonies of His word say about our God's motives, past actions, and intentions.

    This is my short answer regarding my convictions, what are your convictions............
    Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

    www.woc-church.org

  • #2

    I'm going to quote the aspotles' doctrine, and then I'm going to copy-cat the way the church interprets the apostles' doctrine (so don't blame me if I contradict myself in the process):

    "... and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work." (2Tim.3: 15-17).

    But don't study it TOO much - if you do you'll be guilty of "going back to Judaism"!

    God bless Manichunter,

    Ananias.
    "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

    And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

    Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
    (Mat.23: 8-10)

    AND

    "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

    By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
    (Joh.13: 34-35)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ananias View Post
      I'm going to quote the aspotles' doctrine, and then I'm going to copy-cat the way the church interprets the apostles' doctrine (so don't blame me if I contradict myself in the process):

      "... and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work." (2Tim.3: 15-17).

      But don't study it TOO much - if you do you'll be guilty of "going back to Judaism"!

      God bless Manichunter,

      Ananias.
      Judiaism is not in the Tanakh or the second covenant epistles. Judiaism was created as it exist today post 70 A.D. It is a misconception that the Jews of Jesus time observed one religious view, but many. Jesus confronted different doctrinal beliefs of the Jews. He confronted the Sadducees, Herodians, and Pharisees regarding there religious doctrine. It is not shown if He ever confronted the Zealots or Essense who also had their different beliefs. The Zealots are elluded to in the book of Acts and one of the Disciples was a former Zealot. A Zealot just before Yeshua claimed to be the Messiah, but He was killed and his movement died out.

      I know I got to watch studying,,,,,,,, I have to fight pride everytime after studying the Scripture, I get all puffed up....... LOL
      Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

      www.woc-church.org

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ananias View Post
        I'm going to quote the aspotles' doctrine, and then I'm going to copy-cat the way the church interprets the apostles' doctrine (so don't blame me if I contradict myself in the process):

        "... and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work." (2Tim.3: 15-17).

        But don't study it TOO much - if you do you'll be guilty of "going back to Judaism"!

        God bless Manichunter,

        Ananias.
        Tongue in cheek. Brilliant

        Comment


        • #5
          Frankly, I like reading your posts because your yes' are yes and no's are no's............which in that type of authoritive "voice" through your posting irrates some people. I find it refreshing and honest. To challenge each other to mature in Christ means we reflect on a persons opinions/convictons and use scripture to see if the statement is true. So how is studying scripture bad? How is challenging one another to eat "meat" so disheartening ? Your plumbline is scripture - not someone on this messageboard!

          In God's Amazing Grace!

          Comment


          • #6
            Getting back to topic... (LoL)

            Actually, Manichunter, your OP in this thread taught me something I never knew about the new moon festivals. Your understanding of the spiritual application (halacha) to us as disciples of Jesus is something I never heard before.

            I understood the halacha of the mo'adim as well as of the year of Jubilee - but this OP of yours is instruction from the scriptures (Torah) that I never realized was there. So thank you!

            The words scripture and Torah (which means instruction) are synonomous words - that's why Paul, at least, understood exactly what he meant when he said to Timothy,

            "... and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work." (2Tim.3: 15-17).

            But the caveat we have to bear in mind (which I'm sure you're aware of) is that the moment we think we MUST observe ANY festival, we have fallen from grace - whether it be Passover or Easter or Pentecost or "St Patrcik's day" or Christmas or "Palm Sunday" or Rosh Hashanah or Sukkot or whatever (see how I've deliberately mixed up the man-appointed, man-dreamed up "Christian" festivals with those which God revealed to Moses on Mt Sinai, to keep myself out of trouble! LoLs.

            ananias
            "But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.

            And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

            Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
            (Mat.23: 8-10)

            AND

            "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

            By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another."
            (Joh.13: 34-35)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by manichunter View Post

              I do not observed Torah in the manner of letter and by means of my own human strenght and efforts (carnality). It does not produce any legal righteousness for me or declare me not guilty before God. It does not prove me better, wiser, or stronger than any other believer who does not agree with my observances. It does however prove my efforts to love and be holy towards God in a personal relationship, fellowship and communion. Moreover, this is a personal matter that is between God and the observer, which does not need the approval of any other believer.
              Ok, I'm going to plead ignorance here....when you say 'Torah', are you speaking of the Old Testament scriptures only or another compilation of scriptures intended primarily for the Jews?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lo-Lo View Post
                Frankly, I like reading your posts because your yes' are yes and no's are no's............which in that type of authoritive "voice" through your posting irrates some people. I find it refreshing and honest. To challenge each other to mature in Christ means we reflect on a persons opinions/convictons and use scripture to see if the statement is true. So how is studying scripture bad? How is challenging one another to eat "meat" so disheartening ? Your plumbline is scripture - not someone on this messageboard!

                In God's Amazing Grace!
                You used some words that are not in my vocabulary. What is a plumbline and how does it fit towards me.

                I think it means validation. I know I will not get that. If I did get validation, then I would not know how to take it. All I could probaly do is say amen and praise God.......

                What do you mean as authoritative manner? I was trained to speak as such as a manner of my professional life as a cop in Harris County, Drill Sergeant at an adult boot camp, and interrogator in the military. My pastor is also constantly telling me to prepare my sermons as such as well. He constantly say make declarative statements in your outlines. My past trainers constantly said be frank and forward. I did not know I was coming off like this.
                Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

                www.woc-church.org

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
                  Ok, I'm going to plead ignorance here....when you say 'Torah', are you speaking of the Old Testament scriptures only or another compilation of scriptures intended primarily for the Jews?

                  Torah in the manner of the instructions given to Israel to establish them as Yahweh's special people and priest to the nations. They failed in their flesh to be the priest to the world and spread the Gospel of Yahweh? Hence, God chose to do it Himself through His Son by the Holy Spirit in the use of vessels called Spiritual Israel (the royal priesthood today, US)

                  Deut 4: 6 "So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, `Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.' 7 "For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the LORD our God whenever we call on Him? 8 "Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
                  Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

                  www.woc-church.org

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What is the mark of confusion, but the existence of various denominations and doctrinal schools of thought. What is the mark of chaos, but the existence of sin sitting comfortably in a lot of churches without the extreme pressure to be holy as He is holy.
                    Amen. Amen. I don't believe that we need to understand the Torah to understand that, however. The OT scriptures are handled quite well in the NT. I'd rather spend my time in the latter!!

                    God bless you as you continue your study! Please continue to provide scriptural insights.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, you really answered your question in your analysis of my question ! Yes, we all seek validation of our convictions but they should center over what the scriptures say and not by our peers-I know we are human and this cannot be helped. People who talk frankly (and I am one of them) unnerve quite a few people. I do not like to be misunderstood, so I try to be clear and direct with my explanations which seems to get me into a lot of trouble . You are quite frank and clear with your posts-which is a good thing! I may not agreed with what you say in the post but you sure make me look up subjects I might never have thought about! What I love about convictions is the challenge to figure out by studying scripture what is the truth and how that applies to me......hence, my spiritual growth.

                      In God's Amazing Grace!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lo-Lo View Post
                        Well, you really answered your question in your analysis of my question ! Yes, we all seek validation of our convictions but they should center over what the scriptures say and not by our peers-I know we are human and this cannot be helped. People who talk frankly (and I am one of them) unnerve quite a few people. I do not like to be misunderstood, so I try to be clear and direct with my explanations which seems to get me into a lot of trouble . You are quite frank and clear with your posts-which is a good thing! I may not agreed with what you say in the post but you sure make me look up subjects I might never have thought about! What I love about convictions is the challenge to figure out by studying scripture what is the truth and how that applies to me......hence, my spiritual growth.

                        In God's Amazing Grace!
                        I guess it is another thing to mortify as to not steal glory from God....... right, thanks brother for the assessment. I must honor truth, it is a temptation. Most people want to be right and seen as sharp, however, the saint cannot be puffed up as such. Feel free to shoot me down if you see my head swell real big.............. LOL
                        Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

                        www.woc-church.org

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by manichunter View Post
                          I lot of people have claimed that I confuse them regarding what I observe. So I will try to explain it in a short manner. I also welcome others whether proponent or opponent to share what they know; for I definitely want to know more myself.

                          I have seen the messages concerning me and my manner of posting. My motives have never been hidden or covert. I have been as frank , tactful, and loving as I can be. I understand that most purposely avoid me as seen by the private messages. However, what can I do about that, and is that even my concern, no (it does hurt to some degree, but I have not allowed the devil to trick me into being offended).

                          What I know has been learned over a course of seventeen years. Half was learned from instruction via pastors, seminary school, and friends. The other half was learned from personal study and research. All of these means are still continuing as I search for an even greater relationship with Yahweh.

                          I do not observed Torah in the manner of letter and by means of my own human strenght and efforts (carnality). It does not produce any legal righteousness for me or declare me not guilty before God. It does not prove me better, wiser, or stronger than any other believer who does not agree with my observances. It does however prove my efforts to love and be holy towards God in a personal relationship, fellowship and communion. Moreover, this is a personal matter that is between God and the observer, which does not need the approval of any other believer.

                          I believe the confusion surrounding the Torah is a the greatest work of confusion and deception by Satan. I say this because of the manifestation of confustion and chaos in the Body of Christ. What is the mark of confusion, but the existence of various denominations and doctrinal schools of thought. What is the mark of chaos, but the existence of sin sitting comfortably in a lot of churches without the extreme pressure to be holy as He is holy.

                          I think that all believers should have a personal understanding of Torah whether one observes it or not is paramount necessity. I see it as a reasonable attempt to understand Yeshua's character and intentions towards His people.

                          I personally see the the Torah in a new light because I challenge myself to know what Torah was. I now see Torah as it always was, spiritual and holy. It was entrusted to mankind in the flesh, but it did not fit, for mankind was totally corrupted by carnality and iniquity.
                          The Torah should be viewed in a spiritual sense both in the practical and application manner. They are not laws in the same manner as most think of laws as deterrents against specific actions. The Torah are Yahweh's instructions for holy and spiritual living. This was not possible in the first, until the coming of the Holy Spirit.


                          Here are a few examples of theTorah break down:
                          The commandments being the Ten commandments are vows and mark of our covenant between Yahweh and the believer. Any breech of these are considered covenant violations. Ex. The thou shall not do ten things. These are marked upon our heart as a means of showing how we relate to Yahweh. Not adhering to the vows is an act of adultery.

                          The judgments are what define our conduct, fellowship, and attitude towards our brother. Ex. Not charging our Christian brother interest on a loan. He is family, right. Spirit should be thicker than blood. How much this is not seen in even how most relate to each other on a lot of forums. We say we are Christians, but we do not say we are brothers. Why? We are ignored of the judgments that would expose the truth of sin concerning our ill heart's towards the truth our brotherhood and manner of relating.

                          The statutes are what define the manner of worship and fellowship with God in the performance of our spiritual duties. Ex. Being a living sacrifice as a burnt offering towards God which typifies a specific manner of conduct necessary to follow through and complete a specific spiritual and holy duty. The bullock defining our manner of work ethic and definition of duty, the lamb defining our attitude and mindset towards others, and the dove defining our mannerisms towards God and His people.

                          The testimonies are the examples of what Yahweh did and will continue to do as a manner of pattern and relationships. Ex. How God took the children of Israel out of Egypt.Will and does God still deliver us from our personal Egypts today. Has he done it before? What does the testimonies of His word say about our God's motives, past actions, and intentions.

                          This is my short answer regarding my convictions, what are your convictions............
                          Hi manichunter,

                          I think you are right on target and, I, just by what I've read in your post here know there is a deep personal relationship developed and growing because of your understanding of how God is revealed to one who understands the Torah.

                          Once you know/understand The Torah.
                          The Torah can be a blessing if you apply it, or it can be a curse if you ignore it.
                          But, not everyone knows/understands it, or are (not ready for/can't digest it yet)

                          The doctrine of Salvation/restoration of mans position back into a relationship with his creator is the foundation of Christianity, Sadly most christians are content just having this.
                          If when God creates a desire/hunger/thirst in a christian for more than the milk of salvation, then The Holy spirit and Gods word will point past the milk of the gospel and point at the Torah for that individual to find more and deeper revelations of God.... but until then any man pointing to the Torah just adds to the confusion the evil one has already established on this subject.

                          Those who are not ready for meat yet but still digesting milk, or some who think themselves wise and just don't want to be held accountable to the wisdom found there so just keep sipping milk and become defensive when this is pointed out by a man.
                          So I personally think it is best to let God call them to the meat and away from the milk before trying to help them digest the meat when they are not able or willing yet.

                          In other words, Don't try to guide people to the Torah....
                          Try to guide people through the Torah once Gods brings them to it....
                          Otherwise you will be just adding to the confusion and feeding the fire that the evil one has already established on this subject.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by manichunter View Post
                            I lot of people have claimed that I confuse them regarding what I observe. So I will try to explain it in a short manner. I also welcome others whether proponent or opponent to share what they know; for I definitely want to know more myself.

                            I have seen the messages concerning me and my manner of posting. My motives have never been hidden or covert. I have been as frank , tactful, and loving as I can be. I understand that most purposely avoid me as seen by the private messages. However, what can I do about that, and is that even my concern, no (it does hurt to some degree, but I have not allowed the devil to trick me into being offended).

                            What I know has been learned over a course of seventeen years. Half was learned from instruction via pastors, seminary school, and friends. The other half was learned from personal study and research. All of these means are still continuing as I search for an even greater relationship with Yahweh.

                            I do not observed Torah in the manner of letter and by means of my own human strenght and efforts (carnality). It does not produce any legal righteousness for me or declare me not guilty before God. It does not prove me better, wiser, or stronger than any other believer who does not agree with my observances. It does however prove my efforts to love and be holy towards God in a personal relationship, fellowship and communion. Moreover, this is a personal matter that is between God and the observer, which does not need the approval of any other believer.

                            I believe the confusion surrounding the Torah is a the greatest work of confusion and deception by Satan. I say this because of the manifestation of confustion and chaos in the Body of Christ. What is the mark of confusion, but the existence of various denominations and doctrinal schools of thought. What is the mark of chaos, but the existence of sin sitting comfortably in a lot of churches without the extreme pressure to be holy as He is holy.

                            I think that all believers should have a personal understanding of Torah whether one observes it or not is paramount necessity. I see it as a reasonable attempt to understand Yeshua's character and intentions towards His people.

                            I personally see the the Torah in a new light because I challenge myself to know what Torah was. I now see Torah as it always was, spiritual and holy. It was entrusted to mankind in the flesh, but it did not fit, for mankind was totally corrupted by carnality and iniquity.
                            The Torah should be viewed in a spiritual sense both in the practical and application manner. They are not laws in the same manner as most think of laws as deterrents against specific actions. The Torah are Yahweh's instructions for holy and spiritual living. This was not possible in the first, until the coming of the Holy Spirit.


                            Here are a few examples of the Torah break down:
                            The commandments being the Ten commandments are vows and mark of our covenant between Yahweh and the believer. Any breech of these are considered covenant violations. Ex. The thou shall not do ten things. These are marked upon our heart as a means of showing how we relate to Yahweh. Not adhering to the vows is an act of adultery.

                            The judgments are what define our conduct, fellowship, and attitude towards our brother. Ex. Not charging our Christian brother interest on a loan. He is family, right. Spirit should be thicker than blood. How much this is not seen in even how most relate to each other on a lot of forums. We say we are Christians, but we do not say we are brothers. Why? We are ignored of the judgments that would expose the truth of sin concerning our ill heart's towards the truth our brotherhood and manner of relating.

                            The statutes are what define the manner of worship and fellowship with God in the performance of our spiritual duties. Ex. Being a living sacrifice as a burnt offering towards God which typifies a specific manner of conduct necessary to follow through and complete a specific spiritual and holy duty. The bullock defining our manner of work ethic and definition of duty, the lamb defining our attitude and mindset towards others, and the dove defining our mannerisms towards God and His people.

                            The testimonies are the examples of what Yahweh did and will continue to do as a manner of pattern and relationships. Ex. How God took the children of Israel out of Egypt.Will and does God still deliver us from our personal Egypts today. Has he done it before? What does the testimonies of His word say about our God's motives, past actions, and intentions.

                            This is my short answer regarding my convictions, what are your convictions............
                            Hi Manichunter,

                            As I have said before I enjoy our dialgues, however with regards to what you do although you do it without regards to righteousness, according to the following how does it apply to you?

                            Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith.
                            Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

                            Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

                            How do you please God with that which is not of faith?

                            Thanks Firstfruits

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              by which spirit?

                              The bible states that Jesus is the spirit; 2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. So if we are following Jesus what then are we describing as the spirit of the law that we are led to do the thing of the law of Moses? Jesus is that spirit and it is Jesus we say we follow?

                              Firstfruits

                              Comment

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