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  • Calling all predestination believers....

    I was reading a thread on predestination....

    And I noticed a lot of questions on the thread that were not answered....

    Some were even accused of asking "emotional" questions....

    Though I do not doubt the emotion in said questions.... They were based in pure old fashioned logic....

    That thread is an old thread that has hundreds of posts.... And I am sorry.... But I just don't wish to wade through all of them to find one predestination believer who will answer those questions with Scripture.

    So I am going to post those questions here.....

    And hope that one of you will answer them....

    Please make sure that your answers are accompanied by Scripture....

    Because a lot of what I saw was opinion and conjecture....

    Question 1:

    Does foreknowledge mean that God planned the evil that goes on?

    Question 2:

    If God makes people for the express intent of sending them to hell....
    How do we know one of us is or is not "the damned"?

    Question 3:

    Does God really force people to sin?

    Question 4:

    What is the criteria prerequisite to becoming "The Chosen"?

    Question 5:

    If God predestines people....

    Why is it that all of us are born in sin?

    Question 6:

    If God makes people for the express intent of sending them to hell....

    Why is the Salvation invitation extended to the entire human race?

    Question 7:

    Would God send someone to hell who has given their life to Him and served Him faithfully.... Just because they were preordained for hell?

    Question 8:

    If some were predestined for Glory.... And some for eternal damnation.... Why does it say specifically that God DOES NOT WANT anyone to perish? Does not the word predestinate express a wish that some go on to glory and some do not?

    I have read the entire book of Romans before.... And I intend to do so again.... I do not believe in taking one verse.... or one chapter even.... And basing an entire theological doctrine on just that.... I read chapters 8,9, and 10 last night..... And the only predestinating I saw was those who had faith versus those who refused to have faith....

    Mind you God did harden hearts.... But the way I see it.... He did that because they were already well on their way to a hardened heart....

    I refuse to believe that foreknowledge means foreplanning.... God does know everything in advance.... Because He is God.... But I do not believe that means God wills people to sin.... It says in the word that God does not tempt ANYONE to sin.

    God simply knows your heart and has since before the dawn of time.... And just like He planned a route to salvation.... He planned accordingly....

    As soon as I have a few responses I will post what I have found last night....

    All can post here....

    But I would appreciate it if we can let those who believe in predestination have a chance first....

    And lets please make this a peaceful thread with intellegent people coming together to reason with eachother....
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  • #2
    I believe in predestination, but it is not what you are asking about. You are asking about election. They are different.
    I also believe in election, but not from the side of the questions you have asked, so I cannot answer them as one that believes in it the way they do. So I'll just get a bag of popcorn and wait for them to respond.

    Comment


    • #3
      Predestinate: from the Greek word proorizo - from 4253 and 3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:--determine before, ordain, predestinate.

      In the following verses:

      Ac*4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel [determined before] to be done.
      Ro*8:29 For whom he did foreknow, [he also] did [predestinate] to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
      Ro*8:30 Moreover whom [he did predestinate], them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
      1Co*2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God [ordained] before the world unto our glory:
      Eph*1:5 [Having predestinated] us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
      Eph*1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, [being predestinated] according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

      Predestinate comes from a primary preposition pro - "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:--above, ago, before, or ever. In the comparative, it retains the same significations.

      A few verses where this primary preposition is found:

      Mt*6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, [before] ye ask him.
      Mt*8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us [before] the time?
      Mt*11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger [before] thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
      Lu*2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel [before] he was conceived in the womb.
      Lu*21:12 But [before] all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
      Joh*1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, [Before] that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
      Joh*13:19 Now I tell you [before] it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
      1Co*2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained [before] the world unto our glory:
      Eph*1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him [before] the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
      2Ti*1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus [before] the world began,
      Tit*1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised [before] the world began;
      1Pe*1:20 Who verily was foreordained [before] the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

      Predestinate; from the Greek word horizo - from 3725; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:--declare, determine, limit, ordain.

      Used in the following verses:

      Lu*22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as [it was determined]: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
      Ac*2:23 Him, being delivered [by the determinate] counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
      Ac*10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which [was ordained] of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
      Ac*17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, [and hath determined] the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
      Ac*17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom [he hath ordained]; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
      Heb*4:7 Again, [he limiteth] a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

      Since predestinate is a biblical term, it must be understood by how it is used in Scripture. Since the word is used in connection with "ordain" and "limit in advance" it is also necessary to find the meaning of ordain, and determine before. To fully understand how Scripture defines "predestinate" it is also necessary to seek understanding of chosen, elect/election, and foreknowledge/foreknow are also used in Scripture. If we allow the Bible to be its own interpreter, and we do not bring a preconcieved opinion into our study, we should be able to understand exactly what God means when He tells us:

      Ro*8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
      Ro*8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

      Many Blessings,
      RW

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sirus View Post
        I believe in predestination, but it is not what you are asking about. You are asking about election. They are different.
        I also believe in election, but not from the side of the questions you have asked, so I cannot answer them as one that believes in it the way they do. So I'll just get a bag of popcorn and wait for them to respond.
        Can I have some?
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        • #5
          Thank you all for your responses.... Hopefully a few more will see this thread and post their views too....
          And then I will post what I have found as promised....
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          • #6
            Hi Mary - pleased to meet you.

            I think God knew who would become His child from the foundation of the world. i don't think He forces anything - but that doesn't mean He doesn't know the end from the beginning and all that falls in between.

            Not what you were looking for I know but that's what I have gleaned from my studies.
            V
            I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
            - Mahatma Gandhi



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            • #7
              Carl Jung's study of people made him realize that across almost all people in almost every culture, the longer one is alive, the more one "makes relative one's ego". That is to say, the older you get, the more you tend to attribute everything in your life to circumstance rather than personal will.
              Perhaps time makes each of us a believer in predestination.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by HisLeast View Post
                Carl Jung's study of people made him realize that across almost all people in almost every culture, the longer one is alive, the more one "makes relative one's ego". That is to say, the older you get, the more you tend to attribute everything in your life to circumstance rather than personal will.
                Perhaps time makes each of us a believer in predestination.
                Err.... Ok? But what I asked for was answers to the 8 questions listed above.... With Scripture refrences to bolster those answers.... This is an opinion....
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                • #9
                  MaryFreeman:
                  Calling all predestination believers....
                  All believers should be predestination believers because the Bible teaches predestination (Ephesians 1:4-11).

                  Does foreknowledge mean that God planned the evil that goes on?
                  God planned the evil that goes on only in the sense that he created this timeline of events knowing beforehand all the evil it would include (Acts 2:23).

                  How do we know one of us is or is not "the damned"?
                  People can know they are not damned if they believe in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:13).

                  Does God really force people to sin?
                  God not only never forces anyone to sin, he never even tempts anyone to sin (James 1:13-15).

                  What is the criteria prerequisite to becoming "The Chosen"?
                  There is no criteria prerequisite to becoming chosen (elected) by God, insofar as people are chosen by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), before they have done anything at all (Romans 9:11).

                  Why is it that all of us are born in sin?
                  All of us are born in sin (Romans 5:19) so that God can show his mercy to all of his elect (Romans 11:32) and his wrath to all the unelect (Romans 9:21-24).

                  Why is the Salvation invitation extended to the entire human race?
                  Christians must preach the gospel to everyone who is not a believer (Mark 16:15-16) because Christians do not know which unbelievers are elect (Acts 13:48) and which are unelect (John 8:47).

                  Would God send someone to hell who has given their life to Him and served Him faithfully.... Just because they were preordained for hell?
                  No one who has given their life to God and served him faithfully was preordained to go to hell in the sense that from the foundation of the world God wanted them to go to hell. But even those who have given their life to God and served him faithfully in part of their lives can still subsequently be sent to hell if they do not repent from their sins (1 Corinthians 9:27).

                  Why does it say specifically that God DOES NOT WANT anyone to perish?
                  2 Peter 3:9 means that God does not want any of his elect to perish; the "any" refers back to the "us" (or "you"), which refers back to the elect (2 Peter 1:10).

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MaryFreeman View Post
                    Thank you all for your responses.... Hopefully a few more will see this thread and post their views too....
                    And then I will post what I have found as promised....
                    Hi Mary,

                    I am basically in the same position as Sirus, I agree with predestination and election just not in the sense that is indicated in your post

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MaryFreeman View Post
                      Thank you all for your responses.... Hopefully a few more will see this thread and post their views too....
                      And then I will post what I have found as promised....
                      Predestination is not predetermination. Because God knows the end from the begining does not require Him to structure all things to happen in a specific fashion.

                      God has decreed from before the begining of the world certian things would be. He would provide a way of salvation for the world through His Son. Those who trust in Christ will partake of a heavenly inheritance.

                      God has called all men to come to repentace but those that love darkness rather than the Light will perish.

                      Because God is soverign He can allow men to choose to believe.

                      For the cause of Christ
                      Roger

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                      • #12
                        Oh I like that!



                        I have seen several responses here that couple predestination with free will....

                        Which is what I have been led to believe after reading Romans....

                        I read post after post in which I had witnessed predestination believers stating catigorically that we do not have the free will to choose....

                        This makes no sense in light of John 3:16....

                        Joh 3:16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life. [AMP]


                        G2889
                        κόσμος
                        kosmos
                        kos'-mos
                        Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.


                        Above is the Greek word Kosmos.... Which can have the literal meaning.... that is world as in inhabitants.... or the figurative meaning.... as in morally....


                        So God loved everyone in this world so much He [premeditated/preplanned] a route to salvation by sending Jesus to die on the cross for all of us.... That those of us [who believed in Jesus] should not perish but have life eternal....


                        I said that because I once had a discussion with someone who does not believe in free will.... That person wished me to believe that the word world did not mean all of earths inhabitants.... When it quite clearly does....


                        I too believe that God foreknew who would believe in His Son.... And who would not....


                        G4267
                        προγινώσκω
                        proginōskō
                        prog-in-oce'-ko
                        From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).


                        This is the Greek word proginosko.... Meaning to know before hand.... or foresee.... It is used here:

                        For God knew His people in advance, and He chose them to become like His Son, so that His Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, He called them to come to Him. And having called them, He gave them right standing with Himself. And having given them right standing, He gave them His glory. Romans 8:29-30 NLT

                        I too believe that God predestinated [those of us who choose to believe]....

                        G4309
                        προορίζω
                        proorizō
                        pro-or-id'-zo
                        From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.


                        This is the Greek word proorizo.... It means to limit in advance.... I do believe God limited in advance the final destination to [those of us who choose to believe in him]....


                        I too believe in the elect.... I believe that I am of said elect.... Now why do I believe that?


                        G1588
                        ἐκλεκτός
                        eklektos
                        ek-lek-tos'
                        From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.


                        This is the Greek word eklektos.... It is used here:

                        Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.[KJV]


                        The words select and chosen are in the translation of the word eklektos.... To limit in advance is to choose in advance in the sense that God chose those whom He knew in advance would choose to believe....


                        What I don't believe.... Is that progenosko + proorizo = premeditated planning.... The only planning I see is a route to salvation through Jesus Christ for those who choose to believe....


                        So I do NOT believe that God specifically creates human beings with the express intent of sending them to hell. The only planned hardening of hearts and stopping of ears happened with the Jews:

                        Rom 10:19 But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, "I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles." [NLT]

                        Rom 11:7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened.


                        Rom 11:8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day He has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."




                        Will it stay like this? Will the Jews hearts be hardened to our Lord and Savior forever? I don't believe that for one second.... I do know why God did it though:

                        Rom 11:11 Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But He wanted His own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.

                        Rom 11:12 Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.

                        Rom 11:25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.


                        Wow! I personally cannot wait until the Jews finally accept it!! Can you?

                        To conclude.... I do believe in predestination, foreknowledge, election.... I do NOT believe God planned in advance for those who won't believe to not believe.... I believe God is simply God.... He knew the hearts of Jacob and Esau.... He knew Jeremiah before he was formed [Jer. 1:5].... In fact He [preordained] Jeremiah a "prophet to the nations".... He knows each and every heart that beats on this earth before said heart even had a chance to beat.... I do not believe this means that He planned what was in their heart.... Nor do I believe that He put it there.... I believe that He knew it would be there.... He simply knew the end result before it happened....

                        To put it another way....

                        PEPSI OR COKE?

                        God knew before the foundation of the earth that those of you who chose pepsi would do so....

                        You still chose pepsi on your own....
                        Through your own free will....
                        Not His....

                        And God knew before "let there be light" that those of you who chose coke would do so....
                        This does not mean He planned for you to choose coke....
                        You did that all by yourself....

                        I said all that to say this:

                        God did indeed know in advance who would choose to believe with their hearts and confess with their mouths....

                        And He did indeed predestinate them to His glory as scripture says....

                        But He did not set in motion a premeditated plan based on His choice....

                        He set in motion a premeditated plan based on your choice....

                        In other words.... He chose you because He knew you would choose Him long before you ever did.... It was still your choice.... His choice entirely based on your choice.... Ain't that neat?

                        He is not going to sit around waiting on people to choose Him....

                        Why would He do that when He foreknew who would and would not?

                        But as previously stated.... Premeditated planning is not the same thing as foreknowledge.... He made His selection in advance because He knew in advance.... He knew your choice in advance.... Not because He planned your choice.... Because He knew it....

                        Now.... And this time I really am going to conclude....

                        I have seen people using the "clay questioning the potter" verse to IMO skip over the issue of whether or not God deliberately creates people for the express purpose of destroying them.... Or sending them to hell if you would rather....

                        Poppycock! I am not questioning the Potter.... I am questioning the clay.... I am wondering why the clay would choose to believe that some of us are destined for heaven and some for hell regardless of what we do and do not choose.... If God does not cause people to sin.... Nor does He tempt them ( now don't go thinking I believe otherwise.... I'm not that stupid lol!).... Then the logical conclusion is that He does not create them so He can send them to hell.... Because those of us who choose to believe in Jesus Christ.... Who confess with our mouths.... Who believe in our hearts that He is Lord.... That He died for us.... And that He rose again.... Are forgiven of sin.... And are saved.... We see that here:


                        Rom 10:8 In fact, it says, "The message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." And that message is the very message about faith that we preach:

                        Rom 10:9 [If] you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


                        He also is faithful and just to forgive us our sins [if] we do what John tells us is necessary:

                        1Jn 1:9 But [if] we confess our sins to Him, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.


                        The word [if] signifies a choice.... And Gods response to that choice.... "If you do this.... I will do this...."


                        God does not create people so He could throw them in hell (as if it was something He does to pass the time).... That would require preplanning.... Which would cancel free will.... Which IMO is not going to happen....

                        And I am rambling AGAIN....

                        Ok so there it is....

                        THE END THIS TIME FOR REAL....
                        Last edited by MaryFreeman; Feb 23rd 2010, 07:58 AM. Reason: Oops.... Sigh....
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                        • #13
                          MaryFreeman:
                          I read post after post in which I had witnessed predestination believers stating catigorically that we do not have the free will to choose....

                          This makes no sense in light of John 3:16....
                          John 3:16 doesn't require that anyone can choose to believe in Jesus; it only requires that anyone who does believe in Jesus is saved. In other verses Jesus makes clear that not everyone can choose to believe in him (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26-27).

                          God loved everyone in this world so much He [premeditated/preplanned] a route to salvation by sending Jesus to die on the cross for all of us....
                          John 3:16 doesn't require that God loves everyone in the world, just as saying that someone loves TV doesn't require that he loves every show on TV. God hates the unelect (Romans 9:11-24).

                          I do NOT believe that God specifically creates human beings with the express intent of sending them to hell. The only planned hardening of hearts and stopping of ears happened with the Jews
                          Pharaoh wasn't a Jew (Exodus 14:4). Just as God has mercy on both Gentile and Jewish elect people (Romans 9:23-24), so he hardens both Gentile and Jewish unelect people (Romans 9:17-22).

                          You still chose pepsi on your own....
                          Through your own free will....
                          Not His....
                          People are saved not by their will, but by the will of God (Romans 9:15-16, John 1:13). People are saved only by God choosing to miraculously grant them the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5, Acts 13:48).

                          He did not set in motion a premeditated plan based on His choice....
                          God did set in motion a premeditated plan based on his choice (Acts 2:23). That's how the unelect were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4), were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8), even though God never makes them choose to sin (James 1:13-15). God chose to create this timeline of events in which everyone would choose to sin but he would not save everyone.

                          If God does not cause people to sin.... Nor does He tempt them ( now don't go thinking I believe otherwise.... I'm not that stupid lol!).... Then the logical conclusion is that He does not create them so He can send them to hell.... Because those of us who choose to believe in Jesus Christ.... Who confess with our mouths.... Who believe in our hearts that He is Lord.... That He died for us.... And that He rose again.... Are forgiven of sin.... And are saved....
                          God not causing any person to sin (James 1:13-15) doesn't logically require that he did not create some people to go to hell for their sin and created other people to be forgiven for their sin and to be saved (Romans 9:21-24).

                          God does not create people so He could throw them in hell (as if it was something He does to pass the time).... That would require preplanning.... Which would cancel free will....
                          God creating some people so he can eventually throw them into hell for their sins is not done to pass the time, but to give him the opportunity to show his wrath and make his power known (Romans 9:21-22), just as God creating some people so he can sometime during their lifetime forgive their sins and save them is not done to pass the time, but to give him the opportunity to show his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10).

                          Also, neither of these things cancels free will, because people will be cast into hell for the sins they committed by their free will (James 1:13-15), and even saved people can still wrongly employ their free will, subsequent to their salvation, to return back to their old sins without repentance, or to commit apostasy, or to become utterly lazy without repentance, resulting in the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

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                          • #14
                            I am very confused as to the purpose of this thread.
                            There is a 20+ page thread going on right now on this subject.
                            To say I would like everyone who believes in this (which you CLEARLY do not--) to answer my questions, and then I will show you why you are wrong... well, it seems pointless; and a rather false and misleading premise.
                            You do realize that 90% of the board believes as you do already, right?

                            enjoy your popcorn..............

                            Jen

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MaryFreeman View Post


                              I have seen several responses here that couple predestination with free will....

                              Which is what I have been led to believe after reading Romans....

                              I read post after post in which I had witnessed predestination believers stating catigorically that we do not have the free will to choose....

                              This makes no sense in light of John 3:16....

                              Joh 3:16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life. [AMP]


                              G2889
                              κόσμος
                              kosmos
                              kos'-mos
                              Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.


                              Above is the Greek word Kosmos.... Which can have the literal meaning.... that is world as in inhabitants.... or the figurative meaning.... as in morally....


                              So God loved everyone in this world so much He [premeditated/preplanned] a route to salvation by sending Jesus to die on the cross for all of us.... That those of us [who believed in Jesus] should not perish but have life eternal....


                              I said that because I once had a discussion with someone who does not believe in free will.... That person wished me to believe that the word world did not mean all of earths inhabitants.... When it quite clearly does....


                              I too believe that God foreknew who would believe in His Son.... And who would not....


                              G4267
                              προγινώσκω
                              proginōskō
                              prog-in-oce'-ko
                              From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).


                              This is the Greek word proginosko.... Meaning to know before hand.... or foresee.... It is used here:

                              For God knew His people in advance, and He chose them to become like His Son, so that His Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, He called them to come to Him. And having called them, He gave them right standing with Himself. And having given them right standing, He gave them His glory. Romans 8:29-30 NLT

                              I too believe that God predestinated [those of us who choose to believe]....

                              G4309
                              προορίζω
                              proorizō
                              pro-or-id'-zo
                              From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.


                              This is the Greek word proorizo.... It means to limit in advance.... I do believe God limited in advance the final destination to [those of us who choose to believe in him]....


                              I too believe in the elect.... I believe that I am of said elect.... Now why do I believe that?


                              G1588
                              ἐκλεκτός
                              eklektos
                              ek-lek-tos'
                              From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.


                              This is the Greek word eklektos.... It is used here:

                              Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.[KJV]


                              The words select and chosen are in the translation of the word eklektos.... To limit in advance is to choose in advance in the sense that God chose those whom He knew in advance would choose to believe....


                              What I don't believe.... Is that progenosko + proorizo = premeditated planning.... The only planning I see is a route to salvation through Jesus Christ for those who choose to believe....


                              So I do NOT believe that God specifically creates human beings with the express intent of sending them to hell. The only planned hardening of hearts and stopping of ears happened with the Jews:

                              Rom 10:19 But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, "I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles." [NLT]

                              Rom 11:7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened.


                              Rom 11:8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day He has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."




                              Will it stay like this? Will the Jews hearts be hardened to our Lord and Savior forever? I don't believe that for one second.... I do know why God did it though:

                              Rom 11:11 Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But He wanted His own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.

                              Rom 11:12 Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.

                              Rom 11:25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.


                              Wow! I personally cannot wait until the Jews finally accept it!! Can you?

                              To conclude.... I do believe in predestination, foreknowledge, election.... I do NOT believe God planned in advance for those who won't believe to not believe.... I believe God is simply God.... He knew the hearts of Jacob and Esau.... He knew Jeremiah before he was formed [Jer. 1:5].... In fact He [preordained] Jeremiah a "prophet to the nations".... He knows each and every heart that beats on this earth before said heart even had a chance to beat.... I do not believe this means that He planned what was in their heart.... Nor do I believe that He put it there.... I believe that He knew it would be there.... He simply knew the end result before it happened....

                              To put it another way....

                              PEPSI OR COKE?

                              God knew before the foundation of the earth that those of you who chose pepsi would do so....

                              You still chose pepsi on your own....
                              Through your own free will....
                              Not His....

                              And God knew before "let there be light" that those of you who chose coke would do so....
                              This does not mean He planned for you to choose coke....
                              You did that all by yourself....

                              I said all that to say this:

                              God did indeed know in advance who would choose to believe with their hearts and confess with their mouths....

                              And He did indeed predestinate them to His glory as scripture says....

                              But He did not set in motion a premeditated plan based on His choice....

                              He set in motion a premeditated plan based on your choice....

                              In other words.... He chose you because He knew you would choose Him long before you ever did.... It was still your choice.... His choice entirely based on your choice.... Ain't that neat?

                              He is not going to sit around waiting on people to choose Him....

                              Why would He do that when He foreknew who would and would not?

                              But as previously stated.... Premeditated planning is not the same thing as foreknowledge.... He made His selection in advance because He knew in advance.... He knew your choice in advance.... Not because He planned your choice.... Because He knew it....

                              Now.... And this time I really am going to conclude....

                              I have seen people using the "clay questioning the potter" verse to IMO skip over the issue of whether or not God deliberately creates people for the express purpose of destroying them.... Or sending them to hell if you would rather....

                              Poppycock! I am not questioning the Potter.... I am questioning the clay.... I am wondering why the clay would choose to believe that some of us are destined for heaven and some for hell regardless of what we do and do not choose.... If God does not cause people to sin.... Nor does He tempt them ( now don't go thinking I believe otherwise.... I'm not that stupid lol!).... Then the logical conclusion is that He does not create them so He can send them to hell.... Because those of us who choose to believe in Jesus Christ.... Who confess with our mouths.... Who believe in our hearts that He is Lord.... That He died for us.... And that He rose again.... Are forgiven of sin.... And are saved.... We see that here:


                              Rom 10:8 In fact, it says, "The message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." And that message is the very message about faith that we preach:

                              Rom 10:9 [If] you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


                              He also is faithful and just to forgive us our sins [if] we do what John tells us is necessary:

                              1Jn 1:9 But [if] we confess our sins to Him, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.


                              The word [if] signifies a choice.... And Gods response to that choice.... "If you do this.... I will do this...."


                              God does not create people so He could throw them in hell (as if it was something He does to pass the time).... That would require preplanning.... Which would cancel free will.... Which IMO is not going to happen....

                              And I am rambling AGAIN....

                              Ok so there it is....

                              THE END THIS TIME FOR REAL....
                              Well put Mary, the only difference I have is that the potter and the clay is a reference to Israel which many people overlook.

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