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  • Speaking in Tongues

    What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?

    What has lead you to form your opinion?

    Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?
    You were made to think. It will do you good to think; to develop your powers by study. God designed that religion should require thought, intense thought, and should thoroughly develop our powers of thought.

    Charles G Finney



    http://holyrokker.blogspot.com

  • #2
    Originally posted by holyrokker View Post
    What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?
    As far as what is concerned? Whether they are active today? If that is what you mean then, yes, I believe the gift of tongues is active today.

    What has lead you to form your opinion?
    By being used in this gift, witnessing others operate in it as well, and the word of God.

    Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?
    No, because I honestly do not believe the opposite is based upon clear logic.
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

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    • #3
      Originally posted by holyrokker View Post
      What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?

      What has lead you to form your opinion?

      My opinion, that tongues were for a certain time in the Church and are no longer active with some exceptions. (I.E. Missionaries have stories about them not speaking tribal languages and being able to deliver sermons and the tribe understood) I don't believe for one second in the gobbly gupe that happens in many churches today.

      Originally posted by holyrokker View Post
      Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?
      Not right now, just got done with three hours of accounting homework and my mind feels like mush

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      • #4
        Originally posted by holyrokker View Post
        What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?
        There is explicit endorsement by the scriptures for tongues. I don't know how else to see it really. I understand the arguements of cessation but they conclude the answer first and then support it IMO. Personally, I don't think someone reading the Bible fresh for the first time would come up with the idea of cessation.

        I Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

        40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

        God Bless!
        Watchinginawe

        I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by holyrokker View Post
          What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?
          Praying in tongues? Or prophesying in tongues?

          Originally posted by holyrokker
          What has lead you to form your opinion?
          I will answer when I know which of the above instances we are speaking of....

          Originally posted by holyrokker
          Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?
          I could try.... But I already have.... And it wasn't all that logical.... lol!
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          • #6
            Originally posted by holyrokker View Post
            What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?

            What has lead you to form your opinion?

            Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?
            If I could clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes my own then that would be my opinion.

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            • #7
              My Opin....The tongues were human languages spoken by the first century church to preach the gospel. Not some heavenly language as purported today. They ceased at the end of te apostolic era.

              I arrived by believing the Bible on the subject. Namely only the apostles could pass on the gifts. Obviously no apostles are alive today. Bible says they would cease, and they did, by early 2nd century. Not recorded in church history until early 1900's.

              To difficult in light of the Bible teaching on the subject.

              all the best...

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              • #8
                Speaking in tongues.... Prophesying in tongues....

                The first time ever that the Holy Spirit was made manifest through the evidence of speaking in tongues is found in Acts:

                Act 2:4 And they were all filled (diffused throughout their souls) with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other (different, foreign) languages (tongues), as the Spirit kept giving them clear and loud expression [in each tongue in appropriate words].

                At this point in time.... Everyone in the upper room to include the apostles was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in foreign tongues.... And the neatest part about it was this:

                Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabians too--we all hear them speaking in our own native tongues [and telling of] the mighty works of God!

                Each foreign group of people, no matter where they came from, heard the mighty works of God proclaimed in their own language.... But this was a group of people gathered in an upper room.... And a hoarde of people in the streets listening.... And it seems that all the people in the upper room were speaking simultaneously.... Yet each group of foreigners heard what they were saying in their own language! This can only make sense if the Holy Spirit caused each of these groups to be able to hear it in their own language (He interpreted it for them)....

                Speaking or prophesying in tongues is not just for Apostles:

                Act 19:6 And as Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke in [foreign, unknown] tongues (languages) and prophesied.

                Not all languages are human languages:

                1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues.

                Notice that some have the ability to speak/prophesy in tongues.... While others are given the ability to interperet them:

                1Co 12:28 So God has appointed some in the church [for His own use]: first apostles (special messengers); second prophets (inspired preachers and expounders); third teachers; then wonder-workers; then those with ability to heal the sick; helpers; administrators; [speakers in] different (unknown) tongues.

                Here again I see that these are not all human languages that were or are today spoken (but what use are they without love?):

                1Co 13:1 IF I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

                Yes the bible does say tongues will cease.... Languages.... Miracles.... Prophecies.... Notice that it does not say when they will.... It is more a teaching on love.... Love will never go away.... In this life or in the next.... But we won't have need of the gifts of the Spirit in the next life.... So yes they will go away....

                1Co 13:8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].

                See? It does not say when.... So I feel I can safely conclude the implication was that they would pass away when this earth does.... All things as we know them will not remain.... But that hasn't happened yet....

                The gift of speaking in tongues is all well and good.... But usually the only one who benifits is you.... Unless you are in a group and someone else has the interpretation.... Prophesying is better.... As Paul tells us here:

                1Co 14:5 Now I wish that you might all speak in [unknown] tongues, but more especially [I want you] to prophesy (to be inspired to preach and interpret the divine will and purpose). He who prophesies [who is inspired to preach and teach] is greater (more useful and more important) than he who speaks in [unknown] tongues, unless he should interpret [what he says], so that the church may be edified and receive good [from it].

                1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in [unknown] tongues, how shall I make it to your advantage unless I speak to you either in revelation (disclosure of God's will to man) in knowledge or in prophecy or in instruction?

                Indeed.... What use is it if you cannot understand it?

                Not only that.... But why would your spirit speak.... Chineese? Or German? Must be speaking in a spiritual language.... But what good does that do anyone else? So your prayer language must just be for you.... So if you pray in your spiritual language.... And someone else is there.... How are they to agree with you?:

                1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you bless and render thanks with [your] spirit [thoroughly aroused by the Holy Spirit], how can anyone in the position of an outsider or he who is not gifted with [interpreting of unknown] tongues, say the Amen to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? [I Chron. 16:36; Ps. 106:48.]

                Notice here that it says [strange] tongues.... Whereas before it said [foreign/unknown].... Apparently there is a difference:

                1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in [strange] tongues (languages) more than any of you or all of you put together;

                And apparently Paul had the ability to speak quite a few....

                Speaking in tongues is a supernatural sign for unbelievers.... While prophesying is for believers:

                1Co 14:22 Thus [unknown] tongues are meant for a [supernatural] sign, not for believers but for unbelievers [on the point of believing], while prophecy (inspired preaching and teaching, interpreting the divine will and purpose) is not for unbelievers [on the point of believing] but for believers.

                One is meant to convince unbelievers.... The other to edify the church....

                Speaking of the church.... The whole thing is rendered useless if there is no order to it.... Especially if all of us are speaking in tongues at the same time.... And what happens if we do so and there are unbelievers in the congregation at the time?:

                1Co 14:23 Therefore, if the whole church assembles and all of you speak in [unknown] tongues, and the ungifted and uninitiated or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are demented?

                Well I know I probably would have....

                Some say it cannot be helped.... That they are taken over and their tongue wags against their will.... This is completely unbiblical.... As we see here:

                1Co 14:32 For the spirits of the prophets (the speakers in tongues) are under the speaker's control [and subject to being silenced as may be necessary],

                Ok so which gifts should we want above all others? Check this out:

                1Co 14:39 So [to conclude], my brethren, earnestly desire and set your hearts on prophesying (on being inspired to preach and teach and to interpret God's will and purpose), and do not forbid or hinder speaking in [unknown] tongues.

                In conclusion.... The belief in the gifts of the Spirit comes from reading the Pauline letters....

                They have not ceased yet.... As we still have need of them while this old earth remains....

                And no.... there is no logical evidence to refute this opinion.... Which necessitates the illogical.... Which will not do.... lol....
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MaryFreeman View Post
                  And no.... there is no logical evidence to refute this opinion.... Which necessitates the illogical.... Which will not do.... lol....
                  Great post... I will comment on this statement because it matters how you look at it. Some deny the Gifts of the Holy Spirit so for them, it's totally logical to refute what God is doing through all the rest who surrender to Him and allow themselves to be used for God's purposes and His will to work in the Body of Christ and produce glory for Himself.
                  Slug1--out

                  ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                    Great post... I will comment on this statement because it matters how you look at it. Some deny the Gifts of the Holy Spirit so for them, it's totally logical to refute what God is doing through all the rest who surrender to Him and allow themselves to be used for God's purposes and His will to work in the Body of Christ and produce glory for Himself.
                    The reason people like myself view the cessationist opinion as illogical is for the reasons watchinginawe posted above . . .

                    they conclude the answer first and then support it IMO.
                    To me, this is not a logical or accurate way to go about discovering the truth. Instead of allowing God and His word to form their beliefs, cessationists decide what they believe first and then try to force the scriptures to match it. In other words, such a belief is taking a lack of experience to go along with an insistance that all things fits worldy or natural logic and insisting that scripture match such a belief. This is why I believe such a view is just illogical. Carnal logic is not logic at all. It is only perceived logic.
                    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                      The reason people like myself view the cessationist opinion as illogical is for the reasons watchinginawe posted above . . .



                      To me, this is not a logical or accurate way to go about discovering the truth. Instead of allowing God and His word to form their beliefs, cessationists decide what they believe first and then try to force the scriptures to match it. In other words, such a belief is taking a lack of experience to go along with an insistance that all things fits worldy or natural logic and insisting that scripture match such a belief. This is why I believe such a view is just illogical. Carnal logic is not logic at all. It is only perceived logic.
                      This was EXACTLY the reason I was once a cessationist. I looked at all those people handling snakes or whole crowds falling out into tongues, all in the crowd except the cameramen and the purpose that the enemy uses them, effected me... I was deceived into thinking all signs were false, ALL signs. So I justified this in my mind but putting together all the scriptures that any cessationist does and arranged them in the same order all cessationists do and denied the Power of God.

                      Took God a full year to break me after a single member of this board simply continued to testify how the Lord used her in her church and she challenge me to seek the Lord's will and not my will.
                      Slug1--out

                      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by holyrokker View Post
                        What is your opinion regarding "tongues"?
                        Based on the bible I have determined that tongues as seen in the modern charasmatic/pentacostal church are not consistant with the tongues historically recorded in Acts and do not show evidence of having received the corrective instruction Paul offered to the Corinthians.
                        What has lead you to form your opinion?
                        Study of Gods word and observation of the practices in the modern charasmatic/pentacostal church.
                        Can you clearly and logically present an opinion that refutes your own?
                        If my position is consistant with Gods word how could it be refuted? Why would one wish to refute or challenge Gods word?

                        For the cause of Christ
                        Roger

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MaryFreeman View Post
                          This can only make sense if the Holy Spirit caused each of these groups to be able to hear it in their own language (He interpreted it for them)....
                          Mary, there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit interpreted the language for them. We do not know exactly what took place. It could just as easily been that those speaking in tongues moved away form each other and those hearing their own language migrated to that speaker. It could also have been that those speaking in tongues took turns speaking. There is no evidence that the Holy Spirit change the languages between the speaker and the hearer.

                          MaryFreemanIn conclusion.... The belief in the gifts of the Spirit comes from reading the Pauline letters....

                          They have not ceased yet.... As we still have need of them while this old earth remains....

                          And no.... there is no logical evidence to refute this opinion.... Which necessitates the illogical.... Which will not do.... lol....
                          To begin with,


                          1 Corinthians 13:8 ( KJV )
                          Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

                          On the contrary there is overwhelming evidence that the gifts would cease. If you look at the other thread on tongues you see it.

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                          • #14
                            I find it fascinating that such diverse and contradictory opinions each claim categorically to be the only logical conclusion, and entirely based on the word of God.
                            Its frightening when one considers the number of salvation essential issues, the varying opinions on them, the assurance of correctness, and the complete lack of a final determining authority.

                            To answer the OP specifically, I used to be of the "tongues were actual languages" group. Today I'm technically undecided but practically extremely skeptical.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                              Great post... I will comment on this statement because it matters how you look at it. Some deny the Gifts of the Holy Spirit so for them, it's totally logical to refute what God is doing through all the rest who surrender to Him and allow themselves to be used for God's purposes and His will to work in the Body of Christ and produce glory for Himself.
                              I'm sure it is totally logical for them.... However.... I cannot logically argue against my own opinion due to what I have read.... And my own experiences.... I have not listed my own experiences because I felt the biblical refrences were the best thing to give.... What I mean to say is that my personal experiences are not going to help another decide whether or not the gifts are relevant for today.... Because they were given to me personally to confirm my own beliefs.... Each of us must be convinced in our own minds.... And my personal evidences aren't going to help another believer because they did not happen to that person.... They happened to me....
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