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  • Discussion Israel

    Hi everyone,

    What are your thoughts on the modern day Israel?

    I'm from the UK and most Christians here no longer see the land as important. However I believe the promises made to Abraham (I will bless you, make you a great nation etc) still stand today.

    So is Israel 'just another country'? Or does God still have dealings there. And most importantly- if he does---what exactly are those 'dealings'?

    I'd love to know your thoughts...

  • #2
    You know here lately I've thought about how I've always seen Revelations. I've prayed about it and asked God for truth to be revealed to me. I can see the historic side of things being unbearable to resist, but not everything seems feesble to me. Because even though I believe that God's promise to Abraham about making him a into great nation, etc. meant those who follow Jesus Christ(Gentiles and Jews)..I can't rest at that conclusion alone.


    When I hear anyone ever say Israel is not serving the real God...which I believe alot are not(currently)....but there are real Jews their that are truly Born Again Christians, I really feel deeply that Israel let alone Jerusalem is still VERY important to God. I and any other Christian should be VERY CAREFUL about dismissing Israel as a nation and being not a part of God's future plans. The Jewish race is the most hated and despised in all of history and is so even today. There's something that doesn't sit right with me knowing that it's just by 'coincidence' that Israel has so many enemies who vehemently vigh for their destruction. Yet over the last 1900 some years they were not a nation and to see the way they have stood in the last 62 years alone since becoming an actual world nation through the wars they've had and the way they have been protected...I can not sit here and realistically think that it is just all by chance. That land still means something....if not all the people, but the land. Time will tell....and I will support Israel in any of their efforts and not stand beside the rest of those who call for their destruction. Because I have heard 'many' Christians say Israel means nothing...they should just give up their land for the sake of Peace.......Time will tell


    In Christ's Love

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by sjh View Post
      Hi everyone,

      What are your thoughts on the modern day Israel?

      I'm from the UK and most Christians here no longer see the land as important. However I believe the promises made to Abraham (I will bless you, make you a great nation etc) still stand today.

      So is Israel 'just another country'? Or does God still have dealings there. And most importantly- if he does---what exactly are those 'dealings'?

      I'd love to know your thoughts...

      Genesis 13:14-15 ( KJV )
      And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
      For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.



      Romans 11:24-29 ( KJV )
      For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
      For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
      And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
      For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
      As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
      For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

      Comment


      • #4
        Also they way I see it.....if God wants to save Israel or a certain remnant of the Jewish people or however you want to describe it....so be it. I think it is very unwise for us to say what God can do and won't do. Everyone says it is a heart issue...it is....so if in the last days God looks upon their hearts and sees the chains that are holding them in bondage and decides to break them and unblind their eyes in an instant and they believe and they are saved....who are we to say it should be too late for them and thay didn't DO IT THEY WAY WE HAD TO....God's rules, His ways, we don't always understand His ways. In 70 AD I do not believe that God completely left the land of Jerusalem forever. I think it is arrogant of 'The Church' to think we have replaced Israel. Some Christians say the Church has not replaced Israel, but what they say that they believe about alot of other things leads me to believe that they do.

        As Butch5 quoted Romans 11:25


        25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



        Has the fulness of the Gentiles been completed? Some say yes via 70 AD, some say no.


        As I've said in my previous post...Time will tell



        In Christ's Love

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ClayInHisHands View Post
          I think it is arrogant of 'The Church' to think we have replaced Israel. Some Christians say the Church has not replaced Israel, but what they say that they believe about alot of other things leads me to believe that they do.
          Why do you choose to make it so black-and-white, and so all-or-nothing? The entire idea of replace means that you take one group, and you eliminate it to make room for another.
          That certainly didn't happen to the 1st century Israelites who believed Jesus and became the first members of the Christ's body the church.

          Those Israelites were apart of the church, and they welcomed Gentiles who weren't Israelites to join in with them. I hardly see where anyone is getting replaced. How can joining into, or partking of alongwith be considered 'replacing'?

          Look at Romans 11. Does it say that God "replaces" the natural branches (jews) with the wild branches (gentiles); or does it say that the wild branches are graffed in alongside the natural branches, and together they partake of the Root?

          Romans 11:17 "and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree"

          Looks to me like Scripture is including and adding Gentiles into the promises of God alongside the faithful of Israel; and never replacing anyone.

          Look at the original promise made to Abraham....
          Genesis 22:17 "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."
          God when making promises to Abraham, fortold that his descendents of the entire world of all nations, (not just Israel only) would be blessed and partake of the promise.

          The NT re-affirms this inclusion of the Gentiles alongside and with (but not replacing) Israel...

          Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

          Paul goes on to say in Ephesians, that the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile was removed at the cross; and that again Israel wasn't replaced, but rather, the Gentiles were added in along with them as fellow-citizens.

          Ephesians 2:11 "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God"


          I don't see any replacing at all in Paul's writings, but rather inclusion, addition, and joint participation of the Gentiles in the Church alongside Israel.

          I see the term 'replacement' bandied around quite a bit at times, but never seen anyone or any scriptures that truly teach 'replacing' or 'removing'.

          Scripturally, there is never replacing. There is either "joining together with", or complete removal from (in the case of unbelieve, equally meted out to unrepentant Jews and Gentiles alike).

          Whether or not one believes the 1948 formation of a secular middle-eastern nation, who chose to call themselves 'Israel' or not really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not any replacing is going on.

          God can save as many Jews or Gentiles from within the modern state of Israel as He chooses, no more nor any less than He can save any number of Jews or Gentiles from within the modern state of Iceland or Ireland or India.

          The problem with humanity isn't defined based on nationalistic allegiences, but rather the individual sin of the heart the plagues every single human being.

          As Jesus aptly put it:

          Luke 11:23 "He that is not with me is against me"

          John 8:46 "if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. "

          Matt 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."


          Our job as followers of Christ is to go out into all the fields, ripe and ready for harvest....unto all the nations.

          Acts 1:8 "ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. "

          No replacing.....just adding and inclusion.

          Comment


          • #6
            The modern nation of Israel (e.g. the mass of land that is set within borders and a secular government) is no more special than the United States or Russia or Nigeria or Pakistan. God is the King of all nations, and whether Jew or Gentile, if you believe in Christ you have eternal life.
            To This Day

            Comment


            • #7
              And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
              (Gen 12:3)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by goykodesh View Post
                And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
                (Gen 12:3)
                Great passage...what's the context?

                Genesis 12:1 "Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

                The context is directed at Abraham and his seed, someone (a person) who would come from Abraham that would bless the nations, not a government, nor a kingdom, nor a racial group.

                Galatians 3:16, 28 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

                How did Abraham play a part in all of the families of the earth being blessed?

                Matthew tells us:

                Genesis 1:1 "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

                and Luke tells us:

                Luke 1:68 "he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace."

                and John tells us:

                John 8:39 "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me"

                and Acts tells us, quoting Genesis 12 in it's proper context referring to Jesus, not a government or a racial group.....

                Acts 3:18 "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. "

                Comment


                • #9
                  David,

                  What are the two greatest commands?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me" John 8:42
                    "Jesus saith, lovest thou me? ...Feed my lambs. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. " John 21:14, Mark 16:15

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                      "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me" John 8:42
                      "Jesus saith, lovest thou me? ...Feed my lambs. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. " John 21:14, Mark 16:15
                      I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY." And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER." I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
                      (Rom 11:1-36)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by markedward View Post
                        The modern nation of Israel (e.g. the mass of land that is set within borders and a secular government) is no more special than the United States or Russia or Nigeria or Pakistan. God is the King of all nations, and whether Jew or Gentile, if you believe in Christ you have eternal life.
                        Exactly.

                        Acts 10
                        34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

                        Galatians 3
                        28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
                        29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          God's people are those who love Jesus....regardless of race, birthdate, or post-office box.

                          "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me" John 8:42

                          "He that is not with me is against me" Luke 11:23

                          "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. " John 2:23

                          "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." 2 John 1:9




                          Some other good parts of Romans.....



                          Romans 1:16 "the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

                          Romans 3:9, 23 "both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"

                          Romans 3:29 "Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles?"

                          Romans 8:9 "the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

                          Romans 9:24 "not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."


                          Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."


                          My favorite part of Romans 11.....

                          Romans 11:17 "and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them (the natural branches) , and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I love it.......Isn't Scripture cool? Much better than our own words and thoughts......though there is no difference between male, female, Jew, Gentile, there is a distinction. that is why Paul said what he did in Romans about the natural branches. Paul is making that distinction.

                            Think about it (or better yet, pray about it).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by goykodesh View Post
                              I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY." And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER." I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
                              (Rom 11:1-36)
                              Praise God He is a keeper of His promises. He does not change them and we dare not tell Him what He probably meant and should've meant. Israel is still His, and as I've said before.....Time will tell


                              In Christ's Love

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