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If saving faith was a gift of God then why do people need to be persuaded to believe?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by inn View Post
    It seems as if you are saying that I choose, and then God decides. Am I right in this deduction?
    If God waits for us to respond, and then He makes His plan, doesn't it seem that He is no actualy in COMPLETE control?
    Gods plan is already complete, he has given us his Son. We choose whether or not we want Gods plan of salvation.

    Firstfruits

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
      Gods plan is already complete, he has given us his Son. We choose whether or not we want Gods plan of salvation.

      Firstfruits
      I don't think you are answering the question. Here it is again; If God waits for us to respond, and then He makes His plan, doesn't it seem that He is no actualy in COMPLETE control?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by inn View Post
        I don't think you are answering the question. Here it is again; If God waits for us to respond, and then He makes His plan, doesn't it seem that He is no actualy in COMPLETE control?
        God is in control, God has told us what he requires. We must hear and believe his Son, and we must do as Jesus has commanded us.

        1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

        Firstfruits

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
          God is in control, God has told us what he requires. We must hear and believe his Son, and we must do as Jesus has commanded us.

          1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

          Firstfruits
          Yes I do agree with you, but God is giving these commandments to people who already have come to salvation, is that not true?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by inn View Post
            Yes I do agree with you, but God is giving these commandments to people who already have come to salvation, is that not true?
            What God has commanded is for all.

            1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

            Firstfruits

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
              What God has commanded is for all.

              1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

              Firstfruits
              Hi Firstfruits,

              Yes, God does command all men to repent and believe the gospel. Who does this? You say God is in control, but then add that we must choose Christ, where Scripture tells us it is Christ Who chooses us. If we do the choosing, we are in control, not God...but if God does the choosing Who is in control?

              Many Blessings,
              RW

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                I agree in principle.

                That's just it, scripture doesn't say that we freely choose what to believe and it couldn't because it isn't true. What we choose to believe is based on a volitional predisposition. We could find examples in scripture in which it is clear that people refuse to believe the truth because they don't want to believe the truth. No amount of persuasion is going to change their mind. Jesus himself might present his best case, give all the evidence, list every fact, advance every good reason to believe him, and yet, if a man doesn't want to believe it, he won't. Even though he knows for certain that what Jesus said is true, he won't allow himself to acknowledge the truth and he won't live as if it is true. The Bible sometimes refers to these people as stubborn and obstinate.
                Is it not their choice to be stubborn and obstinate? Is that not a result of them resisting the Holy Spirit rather than it being a case of them being unable to respond favorably to the gospel and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit?

                Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

                If God made them that way then why did Jesus get angry with them?

                The question, as I see it, is whether an unbeliever did it to himself or was it done to him? Did he make himself into an unbeliever or did he start out that way? And the question behind that question is: what kind of God are we dealing with and how does he interact with his creation? The fact is, we can find both examples in the scriptures. When talking about Pharaoh, for instance, it clearly says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It also clearly states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Both are true at the same time. Some would like to say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first and then God hardened Pharaoh's heart. But I can't make sense of that, and that's not what it says. The truth is, from my perspective, God as creator has the ability to harden a man's heart by having the man freely harden his own heart.
                It says God hardened Pharaoh's heart for the purpose of His people not being let go out of Egypt and "that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth" (Rom 9:17). But think about what kind of person Pharaoh was even before that occurred. Was he not an evil ruler who made the Israelites his slaves? Was he not already hardened towards God before God hardened his heart for a particular purpose? I believe he was.

                We are talking about saving faith, with the qualification and emphasis on "saving." When Paul preaches to a crowd of people, he has no idea which person or persons in the crowd God is waking up. Paul uses all of his skill, knowledge, reason, experience, to present the best case for the gospel he can but he must leave it to the Holy Spirit to open the ears and the eyes of each individual, removing that volitional predisposition, which allows that person to accept and continue to affirm the truth. And according to Jesus, the Holy Spirit decides which individual(s) in the crowd to bless. The Holy Spirit is like the wind, it comes and it goes and no one knows where it is going or where it came from.
                The Holy Spirit reaches out to all people. Even the Pharisees. But they resisted the Spirit. God desires for all people to repent (Eze 18:23, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6).

                Some suggest that volitional neutrality logically follows from man's responsibility and accountability, reasoning that had God not created us all with a neutral disposition toward the question of belief in Jesus Christ, he would be unjust to hold man accountable for not believing the Gospel. If it wasn't possible for him to believe, God would be unjust to punish him for not believing. However, this position fails to realize that belief is a volitional act in the hands of an evil sinner, not a morally neutral human being. Salvation doesn't come to those who somehow find a way to be a morally admirable creature. Salvation is granted as a work of grace in which God transforms a morally objectionable creature into a morally admirable creature in a process that starts with a transformation of the heart such that a person accepts the gospel message that Jesus is both Lord and Savior.
                People like yourself act as if people are born as fools and born being vain in their imaginations and born with a predisposition to not have any desire to glorify God or be thankful to God. But that is not what Paul taught.

                Romans 1
                18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
                19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
                20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
                21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
                22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


                How do you reconcile your understanding of things with a passage like this? Why is it that man is without excuse when he does not acknowledge God's eternal power and Godhead and does not glorify Him as God or are thankful to Him?

                Quite right. But the point is: notice that the Corinthians themselves are not in the picture. The only people involved in the process, the only people that have an influence over the outcome (i.e. converts to the faith) are Paul, Apollos, and God.
                That is how you read it, but that is not what scripture teaches. Scripture says that man must humble himself before God. Where does it say that God does that for man? And you didn't answer my question regarding 1 Cor 3:8, which follows the verse you focused on.

                1 Cor 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

                Does this not show that man will be held responsibile for his own behavior and will be rewarded or judged for it? If God does everything then how would verses like this one and others that say Christ will come and reward/judge every man according to their works (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12) make any sense?

                The fact that Paul leaves out the Corinthians added to the fact that he makes God responsible for the increase strongly implies that the final movement toward belief is left up to God. There are two sides to belief, the person who brings the message, and the person who believes the message. Paul places himself on the side of the equation having to do with bringing the message. Then he makes God responsible for the other side of the equation -- believing the message. Without a move of the Holy Spirit a person will not move from his or her natural and evil bias against God.
                You are misinterpreting the passage. It does not say God is responsible for someone believing the message. That would mean He is responsible for people not believing, which would contradict the fact that people are without excuse for not believing. If it's God's responsibility that they don't believe then that would be a good excuse for them not believing, but instead they have no excuse.

                I can't speak for the others but that's not how I see it. The gift of belief isn't an infusion of knowledge, or confident acceptance of a set of doctrines. Rather, the gift of belief is when God removes a man's natural, malefic predisposition against the truth of his existence and the gospel message. Everyone who believes the Gospel believes what I just said, though they wouldn't put it like that.

                Freewill is doing what I want. But I don't always do what I want. And I don't always want the right things. Salvation is when God begins to align my desires with his. I am not asking God to give me what I want. I'm asking God to change what I want into what he wants. I want to eventually come to the point that I can honestly say that what God wants is what I would want and what I want is what God would want, just as it is with our master Jesus. Salvation is when God reaches down to a man who naturally and stubbornly finds out what God wants and does the opposite and transforms him into a man who wants what God wants. In order to save us, God has to violate our free will. And we are glad he did.
                You believe that He only wants some to repent and be saved and He basically does it for them. So, show me where scripture teaches that God does not desire for all people to repent and be saved.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                  Hi Firstfruits,

                  Yes, God does command all men to repent and believe the gospel. Who does this? You say God is in control, but then add that we must choose Christ, where Scripture tells us it is Christ Who chooses us. If we do the choosing, we are in control, not God...but if God does the choosing Who is in control?

                  Many Blessings,
                  RW
                  God is in control and he has commanded what he wants us to do.

                  Mt 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

                  Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
                  Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

                  If we choose not to obey, Gods plan is still in force. God is still in control.

                  Firstfruits

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                    Hi Firstfruits,

                    Yes, God does command all men to repent and believe the gospel. Who does this? You say God is in control, but then add that we must choose Christ, where Scripture tells us it is Christ Who chooses us. If we do the choosing, we are in control, not God...but if God does the choosing Who is in control?

                    Many Blessings,
                    RW
                    Exactly Roger..... and this is the pardox of today's times... man believing he/she chooses God... and thru this belief system and its presentation... thru its subtleness.... tells God.. your NOT IN CONTROL...when He Truthfully Is... it is God who Chooses .. not man... this presentation of this 'other gospel ' as I will most bluntly call it... is a man centered salvation.... and this shouldnt suprise the Genuine and Elect of God... because this type of belief system.. with man at its core... and mans numer.... he that hath wisdom let him hear... this is foretold it would come.. and will be allowed to come to fruitition because God Himself will allow it.. so that His Word may be fulfilled...

                    in its subtleness it looks really good... and tells man to 'give himself' a pat on the back.. because he/she is 'able'.. yet in all its subtilty.. there is a deep foundation of rebellion.. that goes back .. waaaayyyyy back to the Garden of Eden itself.. and you know what that is all about..
                    Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
                    ------------------------------------------------
                    Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
                    ------------------------------------------------
                    The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
                    Jeremiah 31:3

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                      It was not Paul's (or any other human preacher/teacher) great persuasive skill that causes us to have faith. It is the persuasive power of the Word, applied through the Spirit that is the power of salvation unto all who believe. This is why Paul always persuaded/reasoned from the Word of God. Paul cannot persuade or convince anyone to have faith or believe. It is the gospel of Christ that is the power unto salvation to all who believe. But not all who hear believe...why? Because only the election of God will hear the Word by the power of God and be given faith to believe.

                      Ro*1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
                      Notice something here, Roger. Does this verse say that the gospel of Christ is the power of God to everyone that is given faith to believe? No! It is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes. One must believe the gospel. It does not say they are given the faith to believe it. People are responsible to choose to believe it.

                      Paul preached the Word of faith, or the Word that brings faith, knowing that no one can believe in whom they have not heard of, for the gospel of peace brings glad tidings of good things, but not all who hear believe the gospel, because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the power (word) of God.

                      Ro*10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
                      Ro*10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
                      Ro*10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
                      Ro*10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
                      Ro*10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
                      Ro*10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
                      Ro*10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
                      Ro*10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
                      Ro*10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
                      Ro*10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
                      What Paul taught here is that people must hear the word of God preached before believing it. You are acting as if hearing it alone guarantees one will believe it but that is obviously not the case! Let's read on from verse 17.

                      18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
                      19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
                      20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
                      21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

                      You would erroneously claim that those who do not believe were not given faith and that God did not care about them enough to give them faith. But what does this say? This says that God did reach out to them! You think He does nothing to try to reach those who do not believe but this says otherwise. He wants all people to repent, believe and be saved, Roger. You misrepresent God and His character, which is a grievous thing to do. The true God is not partial as you think He is, but desires for all people to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth.

                      You believe that it pleases God to leave the wicked in their wickedness even unto death. That isn't the God of the Bible, Roger. That contradicts what is taught here:

                      Ezekiel 33
                      10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
                      11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by theBelovedDisciple View Post
                        Exactly Roger..... and this is the pardox of today's times... man believing he/she chooses God... and thru this belief system and its presentation... thru its subtleness.... tells God.. your NOT IN CONTROL...when He Truthfully Is... it is God who Chooses .. not man... this presentation of this 'other gospel ' as I will most bluntly call it... is a man centered salvation.... and this shouldnt suprise the Genuine and Elect of God... because this type of belief system.. with man at its core... and mans numer.... he that hath wisdom let him hear... this is foretold it would come.. and will be allowed to come to fruitition because God Himself will allow it.. so that His Word may be fulfilled...

                        in its subtleness it looks really good... and tells man to 'give himself' a pat on the back.. because he/she is 'able'.. yet in all its subtilty.. there is a deep foundation of rebellion.. that goes back .. waaaayyyyy back to the Garden of Eden itself.. and you know what that is all about..
                        There is no bigger lie from the pit of hell than the one that says man has no responsibility.

                        Rom 14
                        10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
                        11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
                        12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

                        You think that if man choose to humble himself and acknowledge that he is a sinner and that Jesus is Lord and died on the cross for his sins and rose from the dead that he is somehow patting himself on the back. The reality is that he is doing just the opposite by acknowledging that he is a sinner who can't save himself and needs the Lord to save him from his sins and from the penalty of death.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by inn View Post
                          This is a lovely scripture losthorizon, but it was given to those God already choose. God chooses His people, then He continuely says to them as He says to us every day;"Choose!" May we choose to serve Him today.
                          So, you're saying that you think if they had chosen to serve false gods they would still have been saved and belonged to God?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by inn View Post
                            I believe that God's love overwhelms the choosen that this love invades our/my life, that wow, how can I say no to this, can you?
                            That isn't taught in scripture. Scripture teaches that people can resist the Holy Spirit and resist God when He reaches out to them.

                            Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

                            Isaiah 65
                            2I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
                            3A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
                            4Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
                            5Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
                            6Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
                            7Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into heir bosom.

                            Isaiah 65
                            11But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
                            12Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

                            Why would God be angry with those to whom He spread out His hands if it was not His desire that they respond to His having reached out to them with repentance? Notice in Isaiah 65:12 that their rebellion was their choice, not God's. It would make no sense for Him to be angry with them and punish them if He had not given them the ability to respond to His call with repentance and faith.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by John146 View Post
                              Notice something here, Roger. Does this verse say that the gospel of Christ is the power of God to everyone that is given faith to believe? No! It is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes. One must believe the gospel. It does not say they are given the faith to believe it. People are responsible to choose to believe it.
                              Eric, yes...to everyone who believes! Who will believe? I agree, man is responsible to choose to believe...BUT, and this is really BIG...who will act responsibly and choose to believe? Answer...none! There are none good, no not one, there are none who seek God!

                              Every single human is born in Adam, separated from God, in spiritual darkness, sin, and under the condemnation of death! No exception! God would be just to leave every one of us lost, without mercy or life! This is what the free will advocate altogether misses! It is because God loves His creation that He has chosen to save whosoever He will to have everlasting life in Christ.

                              Originally posted by John146 View Post
                              What Paul taught here is that people must hear the word of God preached before believing it. You are acting as if hearing it alone guarantees one will believe it but that is obviously not the case! Let's read on from verse 17.

                              18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
                              19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
                              20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
                              21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

                              You would erroneously claim that those who do not believe were not given faith and that God did not care about them enough to give them faith. But what does this say? This says that God did reach out to them! You think He does nothing to try to reach those who do not believe but this says otherwise. He wants all people to repent, believe and be saved, Roger. You misrepresent God and His character, which is a grievous thing to do. The true God is not partial as you think He is, but desires for all people to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth.
                              Yes, God stretched forth His hand to a disobedient and gainsaying people....Is that not every man before he is saved? God tells us Israel heard, Israel knew, so why did they remain without faith? Does not Scripture clearly show us that faith comes by hearing, by knowing the Word? Yet they heard, and knew and did not have faith...why? Did they (and all unsaved mankind) freely choose to reject Christ after hearing and knowing that in Him we possess life everlasting? How can they be held accoutable unless they hear and know and then willfully reject Him? Of course it has to be free will!

                              Is that the answer Paul gives when addressing, "Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"? Does Paul say, well we are each accountable because we can all hear and we can all know, but because we willfully choose to reject eternal life, well we are doomed of our own free will? Has nothing to do with God...it's our own choice to be cast into the eternal flames! Are you kidding me? Man has free will, and in this he can choose to hear and know the gospel of salvation, and hearing and knowing he still willfully chooses death rather than life???? I hear and know that I can have eternal life in Christ, but I freely choose death instead???? That makes zero sense!

                              NO! The answer Paul gives is that God has the right to do with His creation whatsoever He wills. Salvation is of God, not of man! God will call them His people, and make known to them the riches of His glory, for they are called through His mercy to receive the glory He has prepared for them from before the foundation of the world.

                              Ro*9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
                              Ro*9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
                              Ro*9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
                              Ro*9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
                              Ro*9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
                              Ro*9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
                              Ro*9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

                              Originally posted by John146 View Post
                              You believe that it pleases God to leave the wicked in their wickedness even unto death. That isn't the God of the Bible, Roger. That contradicts what is taught here:

                              Ezekiel 33
                              10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
                              11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
                              Why would anyone believe that it pleases God to destroy the wicked? I believe God when He says, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live". But did you notice who God is speaking to? "O house of Israel"...yes, God is chastening, and warning His covenant people, who have the Word of God, the prophets, the priests, the law to turn from their wickedness and live according to the covenant they have promised to live in. God does not want to destroy them (O house of Israel) for their wickedness, but as surely as the sun will continue to rise, He most assuredly will destroy them if they do not turn away from their sins and back to the one true God.

                              We find similar warnings throughout the NT also...warning us again and again to remain faithful, and to sin not. God is longsuffering and will continue to grant us time to repent until the last of His people have entered into His eternal kingdom. Then God's mercy and compassion will be finished, just as His mercy and compassion for His old covenant people "house of Israel" finally came to an end. God will take no pleasure in altogether destroying all who remain in unbelief, but He will destroy all of them nonetheless. You would think we would learn this lesson from the unfaithful "house of Israel".

                              Many Blessings,
                              RW

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by John146 View Post
                                There is no bigger lie from the pit of hell than the one that says man has no responsibility.

                                Rom 14
                                10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
                                11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
                                12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

                                You think that if man choose to humble himself and acknowledge that he is a sinner and that Jesus is Lord and died on the cross for his sins and rose from the dead that he is somehow patting himself on the back. The reality is that he is doing just the opposite by acknowledging that he is a sinner who can't save himself and needs the Lord to save him from his sins and from the penalty of death.
                                But to say we must choose of our own free will is not choosing to humble yourself! To humble means to humiliate, debase, and bring low. How are you doing that when you say man must of his/her own free will choose Christ? Free will is the act of choosing what "I" want, what "I" desire...how is that dependence upon Christ? We humble ourselves and acknowledge our hopeless state when we say, "Lord have mercy upon me, the sinner"! Admitting we are a sinner, but then saying we can choose to put our faith in Chirst, is to admit that we are not sinners at all. How can we admit to being a sinner, and then say while still in our sin we have the ability to be saved by our own faith? That's a contradiction ever I've heard one!

                                Many Blessings,
                                RW

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