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  • Rom. 8:10

    What is your take on this verse? It says that if Christ is in us, the body is dead because of in, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. I just want to make sure that the "if Christ is in us" refers to the second phrase (the spirit is alive) and not the first (the body is dead because of sin).

    I'm going through Romans with various commentaries, and they all seem to agree that the body is dead means that it has death in it because of sin, but that is true for both Christians and non-Christians, so ho can it be impingent on whether or not wehave Christ in us?

    Unless the passage is referring to us crucifying the lusts and desires of the flesh, in which case would only be true of believers...those who have Christ in them.

    Any thoughts? Are my commentaries off?

  • #2
    Also, is verse 11 referring to the resurrection?

    Comment


    • #3
      Here's a concise explanation from two of my favorite commentaries:

      The meaning of the entire passage, viewed in light of the immediately preceding context, can be summarized as follows:
      You, by contrast, are not basically under the control of sinful human nature but of the Spirit. You are therefore not unable to please God, since God’s Spirit is dwelling in you. (Now if there should be anyone who shows by his life and actions that he does not possess the Spirit of Christ, such a person does not belong to Christ. He is not a Christian at all.) But if Christ is living in you, then, though because of sin the body must die, nevertheless, because you have been justified, the Spirit, himself Life, is alive within you. And if that Spirit, namely, the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead, is dwelling in you, then he who raised Christ from the dead will, on the day of the resurrection, impart life also to your mortal bodies. He will do it through the agency of the Spirit who is dwelling within you.

      Hendriksen, William ; Kistemaker, Simon J.: New Testament Commentary : Exposition of Paul's Epistle to the Romans. Grand Rapids : Baker Book House, 1953-2001 (New Testament Commentary 12-13), S. 251
      But if Christ be in us, etc. What he had before said of the Spirit he says now of Christ, in order that the mode of Christ’s dwelling in us might be intimated; for as by the Spirit he consecrates us as temples to himself, so by the same he dwells in us. But what we have before referred to, he now explains more fully — that the children of God are counted spiritual, not on the ground of a full and complete perfection, but only on account of the newness of life that is begun in them. And he anticipates here an occasion of doubt, which might have otherwise disturbed us; for though the Spirit possesses a part of us, we yet see another part still under the power of death. He then gives this answer — that the power of quickening is in the Spirit of Christ, which will be effectual in swallowing up our mortality. He hence concludes that we must patiently wait until the relics of sin be entirely abolished.

      Readers have been already reminded, that by the word Spirit they are not to understand the soul, but the Spirit of regeneration; and Paul calls the Spirit life, not only because he lives and reigns in us, but also because he quickens us by his power, until at length, having destroyed the mortal fesh, he perfectly renews us. So, on the other hand, the word body signifies that gross mass which is not yet purified by the Spirit of God from earthly dregs, which delight in nothing but what is gross; for it would be otherwise absurd to ascribe to the body the fault of sin: besides the soul is so far from being life that it does not of itself live. The meaning of Paul then is — that although sin adjudges us to death as far as the corruption of our first nature remains in us, yet that the Spirit of God is its conqueror: nor is it any hindrance, that we are only favored with the first-fruits, for even one spark of the Spirit is the seed of life. - John Calvin


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      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Welder4Christ View Post
        Also, is verse 11 referring to the resurrection?
        Absolutely. The reference there is to the future resurrection of the dead in Christ.
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        • #5
          Thank you. That's what I thought

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Welder4Christ View Post
            What is your take on this verse? It says that if Christ is in us, the body is dead because of in, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. I just want to make sure that the "if Christ is in us" refers to the second phrase (the spirit is alive) and not the first (the body is dead because of sin).

            I'm going through Romans with various commentaries, and they all seem to agree that the body is dead means that it has death in it because of sin, but that is true for both Christians and non-Christians, so ho can it be impingent on whether or not wehave Christ in us?

            Unless the passage is referring to us crucifying the lusts and desires of the flesh, in which case would only be true of believers...those who have Christ in them.

            Any thoughts? Are my commentaries off?
            I think Irenaeus gives a good explanation of this.

            Against Heresies, Book 5

            Chap. X.—By a Comparison Drawn from the Wild Olive-Tree, Whose Quality but Not Whose Nature Is Changed by Grafting, He Proves More Important Things; He Points Out also That Man Without the Spirit Is Not Capable of Bringing Forth Fruit, or of Inheriting the Kingdom of God.

            1. This truth, therefore, [he declares], in order that we may not reject the engrafting of the Spirit while pampering the flesh. “But thou, being a wild olive-tree,” he says, “hast been grafted into the good olive-tree, and been made a partaker of the fatness of the olive-tree.” (Rom. 11:17) As, therefore, when the wild olive has been engrafted, if it remain in its former condition, viz., a wild olive, it is “cut off, and cast into the fire;” (Matt. 7:19) but if it takes kindly to the graft, and is changed into the good olive-tree, it becomes a fruit-bearing olive, planted, as it were, in a king’s park (paradiso): so likewise men, if they do truly progress by faith towards better things, and receive the Spirit of God, and bring forth the fruit thereof, shall be spiritual, as being planted in the paradise of God. But if they cast out the Spirit, and remain in their former condition, desirous of being of the flesh rather than of the Spirit, then it is very justly said with regard to men of this stamp, “That flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God;” (1 Cor. 15:50) just as if any one were to say that the wild olive is not received into the paradise of God. Admirably therefore does the apostle exhibit our nature, and God’s universal appointment, in his discourse about flesh and blood and the wild olive. For as the good olive, if neglected for a certain time, if left to grow wild and to run to wood, does itself become a wild olive; or again, if the wild olive be carefully tended and grafted, it naturally reverts to its former fruit-bearing condition: so men also, when they become careless, and bring forth for fruit the lusts of the flesh like woody produce, are rendered, by their own fault, unfruitful in righteousness. For when men sleep, the enemy sows the material of tares; (Matt. 13:25) and for this cause did the Lord command His disciples to be on the watch. (Matt. 24:42, 25:13; Mark 13:33) And again, those persons who are not bringing forth the fruits of righteousness, and are, as it were, covered over and lost among brambles, if they use diligence, and receive the word of God as a graft, (James 1:21) arrive at the pristine nature of man—that which was created after the image and likeness of God.

            2. But as the engrafted wild olive does not certainly lose the substance of its wood, but changes the quality of its fruit, and receives another name, being now not a wild olive, but a fruit-bearing olive, and is called so; so also, when man is grafted in by faith and receives the Spirit of God, he certainly does not lose the substance of flesh, but changes the quality of the fruit [brought forth, i.e.,] of his works, and receives another name, (Rev. 2:17) showing that he has become changed for the better, being now not [mere] flesh and blood, but a spiritual man, and is called such. Then, again, as the wild olive, if it be not grafted in, remains useless to its lord because of its woody quality, and is cut down as a tree bearing no fruit, and cast into the fire; so also man, if he does not receive through faith the engrafting of the Spirit, remains in his old condition, and being [mere] flesh and blood, he cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Rightly therefore does the apostle declare, “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;” (1 Cor. 15:50) and, “Those who are in the flesh cannot please God:” (Rom. 13:8) not repudiating [by these words] the substance of flesh, but showing that into it the Spirit must be infused. And for this reason, he says, “This mortal must put on immortality, and this corruptible must put on incorruption.” (1 Cor. 15:53) And again he declares, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” (Rom. 8:9) He sets this forth still more plainly, where he says, “The body indeed is dead, because of sin; but the Spirit is life, because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies, because of His Spirit dwelling in you.” (Rom. 8:10, etc.) And again he says, in the Epistle to the Romans, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die.” (Rom. 8:13) [Now by these words] he does not prohibit them from living their lives in the flesh, for he was himself in the flesh when he wrote to them; but he cuts away the lusts of the flesh, those which bring death upon a man. And for this reason he says in continuation, “But if ye through the Spirit do mortify the works of the flesh, ye shall live. For whosoever are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.”

            The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

            Tertullian also give a good explanation of this passage in his second apology,

            Chap. XLVI.—It Is the Works of the Flesh, Not the Substance of the Flesh, Which St. Paul Always Condemns.

            You may notice that the apostle everywhere condemns the works of the flesh in such a way as to appear to condemn the flesh; but no one can suppose him to have any such view as this, since he goes on to suggest another sense, even though somewhat resembling it. For when he actually declares that “they who are in the flesh cannot please God,” he immediately recalls the statement from an heretical sense to a sound one, by adding, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.” (Romans 8:8-9) Now, by denying them to be in the flesh who yet obviously were in the flesh, he showed that they were not living amidst the works of the flesh, and therefore that they who could not please God were not those who were in the flesh, but only those who were living after the flesh; whereas they pleased God, who, although existing in the flesh, were yet walking after the Spirit. And, again, he says that “the body is dead;” but it is “because of sin,” even as “the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Romans 8:10) When, however, he thus sets life in opposition to the death which is constituted in the flesh, he unquestionably promises the life of righteousness to the same state for which he determined the death of sin, But unmeaning is this opposition which he makes between the “life” and the “death,” if the life is not there where that very thing is to which he opposes it—even the death which is to be extirpated of course from the body. Now, if life thus extirpates death from the body, it can accomplish this only by penetrating thither where that is which it is excluding. But why am I resorting to knotty arguments, when the apostle treats the subject with perfect plainness? “For if,” says he, “the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Jesus from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies, because of His Spirit that dwelleth in you;” (Romans 8:11) so that even if a person were to assume that the soul is “the mortal body,” he would (since he cannot possibly deny that the flesh is this also) be constrained to acknowledge a restoration even of the flesh, in consequence of its participation in the selfsame state. From the following words, moreover, you may learn that it is the works of the flesh which are condemned, and not the flesh itself: “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: for if ye live after the flesh ye shall die; but if ye, through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:12-13) Now (that I may answer each point separately), since salvation is promised to those who are living in the flesh, but walking after the Spirit, it is no longer the flesh which is an adversary to salvation, but the working of the flesh. When, however, this operativeness of the flesh is done away with, which is the cause of death, the flesh is shown to be safe, since it is freed from the cause of death. “For the law,” says he, “of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death,” (Romans 8:2)—that, surely, which he previously mentioned as dwelling in our members. (Romans 8:17, 20, 23) Our members, therefore, will no longer be subject to the law of death, because they cease to serve that of sin, from both which they have been set free. “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and through sin condemned sin in the flesh” (Romans 8:3)—not the flesh in sin, for the house is not to be condemned with its inhabitant. He said, indeed, that “sin dwelleth in our body.” (Romans 7:20) But the condemnation of sin is the acquittal of the flesh, just as its non-condemnation subjugates it to the law of sin and death. In like manner, he called “the carnal mind” first “death,” (Romans 8:6) and afterwards “enmity against God;” (Romans 8:7) but he never predicated this of the flesh itself. But to what then, you will say, must the carnal mind be ascribed, if it be not to the carnal substance itself? I will allow your objection, if you will prove to me that the flesh has any discernment of its own. If, however, it has no conception of anything without the soul, you must understand that the carnal mind must be referred to the soul, although ascribed sometimes to the flesh, on the ground that it is ministered to for the flesh and through the flesh. And therefore (the apostle) says that “sin dwelleth in the flesh,” because the soul by which sin is provoked has its temporary lodging in the flesh, which is doomed indeed to death, not however on its own account, but on account of sin. For he says in another passage also “How is it that you conduct yourselves as if you were even now living in the world?” (Colossians 2:20) where he is not writing to dead persons, but to those who ought to have ceased to live after the ways of the world.

            Comment


            • #7
              Why is he bringing Rom. 8:10 into this, when that verse is referring not to living in the flesh vs living in the spirit, but to the Resurrection?

              Comment


              • #8
                When, however, he thus sets life in opposition to the death which is constituted in the flesh, he unquestionably promises the life of righteousness to the same state for which he determined the death of sin, But unmeaning is this opposition which he makes between the “life” and the “death,” if the life is not there where that very thing is to which he opposes it—even the death which is to be extirpated of course from the body.
                UUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh.....what?!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Butch....sorry, but I cannot understand a thing he is saying (in the second apology). Could you please put this into simpler terms?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I guess Irenaeus wasn't into easy reading!
                    In His Service,

                    Nomad

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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nomad View Post
                      I guess Irenaeus wasn't into easy reading!
                      Hahaha...Ya. Is there a comic book version of this?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Welder4Christ View Post
                        What is your take on this verse? It says that if Christ is in us, the body is dead because of in, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. I just want to make sure that the "if Christ is in us" refers to the second phrase (the spirit is alive) and not the first (the body is dead because of sin).

                        I'm going through Romans with various commentaries, and they all seem to agree that the body is dead means that it has death in it because of sin, but that is true for both Christians and non-Christians, so ho can it be impingent on whether or not wehave Christ in us?
                        Go back a little.
                        Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
                        Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
                        Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
                        A law of sin in our members leads to death. This cannot be physical death. This is death of the soul.
                        Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
                        Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
                        The answer to the question of who shall deliver me from the body of sin that leads to soulish death is Jesus. Now carry this over into the next chapter.
                        Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
                        Believers have the Spirit. They are free from the body of sin and death. How?
                        Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
                        We were crucified with Christ 2000 years ago -Romans 6. If we believe that (walk after the Spirit)
                        Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
                        It plainly says.....
                        Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
                        You are not in the flesh and are in the Spirit because of the circumcision of Christ and operation of God by the one Spirit Baptism into the body of Christ 2000 years ago. And in v10 is a conjunction (continuative) connecting v9 with v10. They should be read together.
                        Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. v10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
                        The Spirit would not be in you if you were not crucified, dead, buried, and raised with Christ. The Spirit is only in those that have been circumcised (useless flesh cut away and discarded) by Christ. IOW, the body is dead because of sin, because Christ condemned sin in the flesh through His cross.
                        Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

                        Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

                        Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
                        Originally posted by Welder4Christ View Post
                        Unless the passage is referring to us crucifying the lusts and desires of the flesh, in which case would only be true of believers...those who have Christ in them.
                        We do not crucify the flesh or the lusts and desires of the flesh. How could we since Christ already did? Do we need to redo what Christ did? Was His cross not enough? We have through belief in what Christ did -past tense- crucified the flesh with the affections and lust thereof. We do not and cannot resurrect the old man. He is dead. If you sin it is the new man sinning, not the old. In the same manner (Likewise) that Christ died once, we are to account ourselves to have died once when He died.
                        Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
                        Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
                        Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

                        Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
                        Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
                        Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
                        Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
                        Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
                        Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
                        The commentaries do not follow the progression through from chapters 6 and 7. Of couse most do not even understand 7 so how could they?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Welder4Christ View Post
                          Also, is verse 11 referring to the resurrection?
                          No it is not. The context is our walk....
                          Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
                          Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
                          Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
                          Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
                          Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

                          Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
                          Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
                          and later "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Welder4Christ View Post
                            What is your take on this verse? It says that if Christ is in us, the body is dead because of in, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. I just want to make sure that the "if Christ is in us" refers to the second phrase (the spirit is alive) and not the first (the body is dead because of sin).

                            I'm going through Romans with various commentaries, and they all seem to agree that the body is dead means that it has death in it because of sin, but that is true for both Christians and non-Christians, so ho can it be impingent on whether or not wehave Christ in us?

                            Unless the passage is referring to us crucifying the lusts and desires of the flesh, in which case would only be true of believers...those who have Christ in them.

                            Any thoughts? Are my commentaries off?
                            I don't agree with your commentaries. "The body is dead" refers to the condemnation that we deserve. He explains himself a little further down. To summarize his picture: he is trying to explain the concept of a renewed, reborn, spirit. God gives each child of his a reborn spirit, one that is very sympathetic with Jesus Christ. In the following passage, he refers to our reborn spirit as "a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba Father!"
                            For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
                            Notice how he puts it: you have received a spirit. When you become a child of God, he gave you a spirit that cries, "Abba Father". Those who know the passion story are familiar with the fact that Jesus said "Abba Father" in the same context as when he also prayed, "not my will but your will be done." This reflects Jesus' attitude of submission and his love for God. That same attitude is in those who have his same kind of spirit."

                            Now that we have reviewed what Paul means by "the spirit of Christ", which is our own reborn spirit, having the same attitudes and values of Christ, we can go back up and review what he has already said.

                            However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

                            As we will see later in the chapter, when a person has the spirit of Christ, he means that the person has the same attitude of submission and love for God that Christ had. Just as Christ cried, "Abba Father", the person who has the spirit like his will also cry out, "Abba Father!" Paul refers to our reborn spirit as "a spirit of adoption as sons", and he says that the Spirit will testify with our spirit that we are children of God. If that reborn spirit is in you, then we can know certain things about you.

                            If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is life because of righteousness.

                            The body isn't dead; in fact, it is very much alive according to Paul's earlier statement. He points out that a law of his members is at war with another law of his mind. And it is this warfare between the two that seems to be a problem for those who are attempting to gain God's favor through their moral behavior. The body is "dead" in the sense that through it we are ineffective at gaining God's favor. But body is also "dead" in the sense that our moral ineptitude condemns us.

                            But even though our body condemns us because of our sin, we have life because God has granted us justification in view of our reborn spirit. That is what he means by "the spirit is life." Even though we deserve judgment, because we have this reborn spirit, God will grant us life instead.

                            But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

                            Paul refers to our coming resurrection. While someone might unsuccessfully attempt to gain immorality some other way, The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead will give immortality to those who have a reborn spirit.

                            So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


                            What does Paul mean by "live according to the flesh." Some Christians think Paul is talking about living in licentiousness, lacking moral discipline. But I think Paul is saying just the opposite. To paraphrase, I think Paul is saying, "If you are attempting to live a life of moral discipline without having this reborn spirit, you must die. But if you have this reborn spirit and you are committed to moral discipline, you will live. Living according to the flesh, in this context, is living life without the reborn spirit God gives to us.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sirus View Post
                              We do not crucify the flesh or the lusts and desires of the flesh.
                              This is not true.

                              Gal. 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

                              Comment

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