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  • Cain and his descendents

    2 Timothy 3.16: All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching.

    Okay, cool. What can we learn from Genesis 4.17-24, where we are told about Cain and his descendents.

    I've begun studying Genesis recently, and in getting to this section, I honestly can't recall it ever being discussed at length here, or anywhere else. It seems to me that when it comes to Genesis, most people treat it as only a history book. But in that case, this section would be entirely inconsequential to us, because (other than the genealogy in Genesis 5) the next thing we're told about is how God wipes out everyone except Noah and his family. Why tells us about Cain naming a city after his son? Why tell us about Jabal being the father of herdsmen, and Jubal being the father of musicians, and Tubal-Cain being a metalsmith? Why tell us about Lamech killing a man, if, in the end, none of it is relevant to us from a historical standpoint?

    Or is it historically relevant? How so?
    What theology can we derive from this section?
    To This Day

  • #2
    hmm..a guess here, for confirm recorded? first inventer at stuff from some of them? something to do with their names city`s trait of Cain-ish lol? Seem it more of telling us that the knowledgde of that level already there at time, no excuse in bad deeds with obvious avergae intellage . jsut shown make clear they not cavemen.

    that the only thing I can think of.

    Comment


    • #3
      This is just my opinion, but in order to understand all that was going on in the days before the flood we have to know about all of the major people who would affect the lives of what the lesson in the book is. Now Cain was the first son of Adam and Seth was the third son of Adam. The world was turning into a very wicked place yet we are told of Seth's son Enoch, which should not be confused with Cain's son Enoch. Seth's son Enoch has not experienced death yet (Gen 5:24) and so he could be a player in the very last of days as the end times play out. As I said this is just my opinion or it could be said it is speculation which I would also except as an explanation, but never the less something more to look at with regard to your OP.
      I am a Christian man in the Devil's land, spreading the gospel man to man.
      Have you laid your burdens down?

      Comment


      • #4
        What does Enoch from chapter 5 have to do with anything from chapter 4? I don't think you really touched on what I was asking about.
        To This Day

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes there's a lesson right there. How in terrible times a person like Enoch can still be godly.

          Comment


          • #6
            I think we see how God dealt with man in mercy, not imputing sin.
            Banished from the tree of life was mercy.
            Killing all but eight and starting over was mercy.
            Preaching the gospel to them 'in prison' was mercy.
            Preserving Cain's (a murderer) life was mercy (yet the first to break the law (Sabbath) gathering sticks was stoned)
            Cain talked with God just as Adam and Eve did, even to the point that is seems as though hearing God's voice was no big deal to him. He was in God's presence, murdered, lied, and God still reasoned with Him, then not only let him live but protected him. That's mercy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by nzyr View Post
              Yes there's a lesson right there. How in terrible times a person like Enoch can still be godly.
              Again... I'm asking about Genesis 4.17-24, not Genesis 5.
              To This Day

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sirus View Post
                Cain talked with God just as Adam and Eve did, even to the point that is seems as though hearing God's voice was no big deal to him. He was in God's presence, murdered, lied, and God still reasoned with Him, then not only let him live but protected him. That's mercy.
                This is the closest response to the OP—at least you're in the right chapter—but it's still not a response to the specific passage I asked about.

                Maybe this just goes to show how little this passage (4.17-24) is talked about, seeing as how, out of four responses, three of them didn't actually discuss the passage in question.
                To This Day

                Comment


                • #9
                  Mark, without any further context, it just seems inconsequntial to me. If I were to speculate, it could be that it just "finishes" the Cain story by mentioning the fact that he did have a bloodline. But, since they were all wiped out according to gen 6, I guess I don't see the significance other than a footnote.
                  The minstrel boy to the war is gone,
                  In the ranks of death ye will find him;
                  His father's sword he hath girded on,
                  And his wild harp slung behind him;
                  "Land of Song!" said the warrior bard,
                  "Tho' all the world betray thee,
                  One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard,
                  One faithful harp shall praise thee!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by markedward View Post
                    This is the closest response to the OP—at least you're in the right chapter—but it's still not a response to the specific passage I asked about.

                    Maybe this just goes to show how little this passage (4.17-24) is talked about, seeing as how, out of four responses, three of them didn't actually discuss the passage in question.
                    Well I guess I was a little thrown off by you mentioning the flood, but I see that was part of a point not part of the question of a specific section. Sorry.

                    I don't know? They were creative, inventive?
                    Regarding Lamech, he said
                    "If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold."
                    God didn't say that.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by markedward View Post
                      Okay, cool. What can we learn from Genesis 4.17-24, where we are told about Cain and his descendents.
                      Hi Mark. I like the verse in Gen 4:16 to start with.

                      Gen 4:16

                      16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
                      NASU

                      This happened after God dealt with him about the murder of his brother. Cain left the presence of God. The land of Nod means "wandering". So Cain left God and settled in wandering. Is that not what we do when we don't receive the rebuke of the Lord? Does sin not lead us into the "wilderness of wandering"? When Israel refused to obey God, they too went into a state of wandering for 40 years and dwelt there.

                      Perhaps we can find meaning in the names of Cain's offspring too. Interesting thread.

                      Grace to you,

                      Mark
                      Matt 9:13
                      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                      NASU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by markedward View Post
                        2 Timothy 3.16: All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching.

                        Okay, cool. What can we learn from Genesis 4.17-24, where we are told about Cain and his descendents.

                        I've begun studying Genesis recently, and in getting to this section, I honestly can't recall it ever being discussed at length here, or anywhere else. It seems to me that when it comes to Genesis, most people treat it as only a history book. But in that case, this section would be entirely inconsequential to us, because (other than the genealogy in Genesis 5) the next thing we're told about is how God wipes out everyone except Noah and his family. Why tells us about Cain naming a city after his son? Why tell us about Jabal being the father of herdsmen, and Jubal being the father of musicians, and Tubal-Cain being a metalsmith? Why tell us about Lamech killing a man, if, in the end, none of it is relevant to us from a historical standpoint?

                        Or is it historically relevant? How so?
                        What theology can we derive from this section?

                        Good topic Markedward.

                        I think two reasons might apply to Cain's lineage inclusion.

                        1) It shows the forgiving nature of God. While it is true that Cain is the first murderer, God still loved Cain, and God did not cause that single sin to be a unrepentable, forever damning death sentence to Cain. On the contrary, God protected Cain, and God blessed Cain with a wife from Nod, and as the lineage shows, many children. We find even in that lineage, that grandson Lamech also committed a murder, but found mercy in the eyes of God. So if nothing else, we were shown very early on that any sin, even the sin of murder, wasn't too great for God to forgive, overcome, and/or redeem.

                        2) We always focus on Seth's lineage as being the one that transcends the Great Flood. However, we do not know that for certainty. However, of the 8 people who lived through the flood, only Noah's parental lineage is provided through Seth.

                        We do not know the lineages of:
                        • Noah's Mother's lineage...
                        • Mrs. Noah's Father's lineage...
                        • Mrs. Noah's Mother's lineage...
                        • Mrs. Shem's Mother's lineage...
                        • Mrs. Shem's Father's lineage...
                        • Mrs. Ham's Mother's lineage...
                        • Mrs. Ham's Father's lineage...
                        • Mrs. Japeth's Mother's lineage...
                        • Mrs. Japeth's Father's lineage...


                        That's 9 different lineage's outside of Noah's paternal lineage going to Seth, that we simply do not know, nor will ever know.

                        It is quite possible that some of those unmentioned lineages came through Cain's line.
                        It is quite possible that some of those unmentioned lineages came through another unnamed child of Adam and Eve.

                        We can never know....all we can know, is that of the 8 people on the ark denoting 16 lineages, only Noah's paternal line is known. (Seth)....9 are unknown and will always be unknown.

                        People often attempt to talk about the evil Cain lineage and the righteous Seth lineage....but that is really an unsound and ungroundable premise.

                        We know that except for Noah, all of Seth's lineage was also destroyed in the flood for it's wickedness.

                        So it is unfair and frankly inaccurate (because we don't know the full geneologies) to say one line is righteous (Seth) and one is wicked. (Cain)

                        It's not beyond the pale of possibilities that there were more Cain lineages represented (but unstated) in the 8 people on the ark than there were of Seth.

                        What if Noah's Mother was descended from the Cain lineage? That makes Noah half-Seth/half-Cain. What then if Noah's wife was descended from Cain on both paternal and maternal sides? That would have made 7/8th of the lineages on the ark be from Cain and not Seth.

                        Again all speculative and unknowable, but yet it does make the point that we can't build or base any doctrines or foundations solely on the lineages of Adam's children because....

                        ....there simply isn't enough information given to us about them and who 'all' their descendants were to be able to do this.

                        This is one of the reasons the 'Serpent Seed' myth is such a baloney mess-job....it assumes and makes up so much out of what simply isn't there, as if it were there; then builds all kinds of false doctrines after an unsound beginning premise.

                        So in summary, I believe Cain and his descendents give us first and foremost, an understanding that any sin is forgiveable by God and God can bless anyone who has sinned, even if it is murder....and secondly, it is quite possible that the ark-riders not only were descendents of Seth, but quite possibly also descendents of Cain or other later unnamed children of Adam and Eve.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox View Post
                          Mark, without any further context, it just seems inconsequntial to me. If I were to speculate, it could be that it just "finishes" the Cain story by mentioning the fact that he did have a bloodline. But, since they were all wiped out according to gen 6, I guess I don't see the significance other than a footnote.
                          If Cain's offspring were all wiped out, how come Jesus talks to Cain's offspring in Luke 11?

                          Luke 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

                          11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

                          11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

                          11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

                          11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.


                          Just in case there is any question of whose fathers are being spoken to by Jesus, ask yourself who killed Abel?


                          Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.


                          Bless you,
                          Love Fountain

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Love Fountain View Post
                            If Cain's offspring were all wiped out, how come Jesus talks to Cain's offspring in Luke 11?

                            Luke 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

                            11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

                            11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

                            11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

                            11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.


                            Just in case there is any question of whose fathers are being spoken to by Jesus, ask yourself who killed Abel?


                            Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.


                            Bless you,
                            Love Fountain


                            They are builders.

                            Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

                            They would've built sepulchres with their metal tools.

                            4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

                            They are tares amongst the wheat. They are poisonous until this very day and can kill you if you eat of them.

                            Hope this helps.

                            Bless you,
                            Love Fountain

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by David Taylor View Post

                              What if Noah's Mother was descended from the Cain lineage? That makes Noah half-Seth/half-Cain. What then if Noah's wife was descended from Cain on both paternal and maternal sides? That would have made 7/8th of the lineages on the ark be from Cain and not Seth.

                              Again all speculative and unknowable, but yet it does make the point that we can't build or base any doctrines or foundations solely on the lineages of Adam's children because....
                              Jesus Christ did not descend from the line of Cain.

                              There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed in The Revelation of Jesus Christ!

                              Bless you,
                              Love Fountain

                              Comment

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