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  • Once salved always saved false doctrine?

    Having salvation, does not mean that you are saved... We have to live life without sin, we endureth to the ending... This is a race, we finish when we die, not when we get born again in water, and in the spirit.

    Again i have a lot of scripture from the Holy Bible to back this up. KJV is what i read from.

    Hebrews 12:14-15
    14. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. 15. Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God. ( You can't fail unmerited favor, because its unmerited, but you can fail if you dont allow God's devine influence to reflect in your life!)

    Galations 5:4
    4. Christ is become of no effect in you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    So you can fall from grace, and you once saved but no longer.

    2 Peter 3:17
    17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from you own stedfastness.

    2 Peter 2:20-22
    20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21. For it had been bettter for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to here wallowing in the mire.

    Hebrew 10:38-39
    38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
    39 But we are not of them draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    Revelation 3:5
    5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but i will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Matthew 10:22
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Mark 13:13
    same as Matthew 10:22

    Hebrew 3:12-17
    12 Take heed, brethen, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. 15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your heart, as in the provocation. 16. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17. But with whom he greived forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

    Romans 2:7
    7 To them who by patient continuence in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    Hebrews 3:14
    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. (I said this twice because it is important, all is important but i just want yall to know that last part.)

    Overcomers: Jesus spoke to the Churches, to the born again believers and told them that they'd make it only if they overcome!

    Revelation 2:5-7 (Ephesus)

    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    Revelation 2:10 (Smyrna)

    10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and i will give thee a crown of life.

    Revelatoin 2:17 (Pergamus)
    17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that recieveth it.

    Revelation 2:26 (Thyatira)
    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

    Revelation 3:21-22 (Laodicea)
    21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Luke 15:21-24 (parable)
    21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in they sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23. And bring hither the fattest calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24. For this my son was dead, and is alive again, he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    Jude 3-7 (All Jude had for examples was the old testament)
    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was neeful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (expressing lust or lewdness or excuse to sin), and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved his people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day. 7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    The only thing God will NOT forgive is Blaspheme the Holy Ghost: (another proof that once in grace always in grace is falste teaching)

    Hebrew 6:4-6
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



    That took alot of of typing... but i just hope you guys will understand and take this and hide this word in your heart.... and grow stronger every day by doing so.. Hide the Word in your heart, so thou shalt not sin against God. God will forgive every sin but blaspheme, if you have sin in your life, turn it over to God, fall on your knees into repentance, Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand...

    God Bless all of you, and I hope people grow encouraged through with the Word.. For I come to encourage people to the Truth, not to discourage if i sound so I do not. It is kind of hard to tell a distinct attitude on the computer, but if you meet me in person, you would know i am not so..

  • #2
    This conflict has always confused me. It seems the more I hear it, the more it sounds like both sides are saying the exact same thing. So where as the NOSASer (which is cliche, but for lack of a better term) will say that the "sinner's prayer reciter" often "doesn't finish the race", the OSASer most often is not including such people in their definition of saved (and thus always so).

    In my experience, they almost always describe the same sample of people the exact same way.

    Comment


    • #3
      I try not to confuse, I'm just reading from the Bible, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. II Timothy 3:16

      The Bible says you can fall from grace, only you can allow that to happen, no man can separate yourself and God but by yourself.. if that made since..

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TravisJ View Post
        I try not to confuse, I'm just reading from the Bible, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. II Timothy 3:16
        I know

        Originally posted by TravisJ View Post
        The Bible says you can fall from grace, only you can allow that to happen, no man can separate yourself and God but by yourself.. if that made since..
        Bible also says those who are saved are saved indeed. Do you think that the OSAS camp comes to the camp completely void of scripture to quote as well?

        And this is what I see as the grand paradox. A great case can be made for either side using scripture. Both sides will describe the salvation state of the same set of people the same way. They are two ways of describing the same situation, despite appearing to be at odds with one another.

        Comment


        • #5
          So tell me, Do you think you can fall from grace? If a person was to be saved, and went out to the same very sin they were in as they started in before God changed them... you think that is fallen from grace? People can fail god.. and fall from grace. you can depart from god.. Look what happend in Exodus when the children of Israel were going to the promise land, and the people were being dying out in the wilderness, was it not the ones who sinned? Same way goes with us Christians, for the wages of sin is death, how can we go to our promise land (Heaven) with sin? We can't, God will not allow any sin into Heaven. If you Love him, you will keep his commandments, you will keep his statues.

          Don't think I am being rude in any manner, I am just asking questions

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TravisJ View Post

            Don't think I am being rude in any manner, I am just asking questions
            Travis, do you believe that one sin will keep you out of heaven?

            There are two camps here as has already been mentioned. There are many as myself who do not fit into either OSAS/NOSAS. This has been debated for the last 2000 years at least

            Some from the extreme NOSAS believe you lose your salvation each time you sin and must be saved again (doesn't make since to me at all since we are not told we can be born again, again)

            Many on the extreme OSAS side believe you can live however you want once you have said a prayer (doesn't make since to me, as Christ said "go and sin no more..." for a reason)

            What i believe in is Security of the Saints.

            If you are serving God and trying to live a sin-less life (hope to sin less today than i did yesterday so God can show me the next thing i need to correct in my walk) then your salvation is secure, you have no need to wonder about it.

            If you choose to serve yourself instead of God then... i would not want to be in your shoes when you face Him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Travis!

              Can I ask; do you love the Lord?

              Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
              Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
              Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
              Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
              Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
              Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

              If you now love the Lord, and at some stage later you stop loving the Lord, has "all things work[ed] together for good to them that love God"?

              Comment


              • #8
                It doesn't take a lot of typing for me to tell you, Travis, that you have misinterpreted EVERY ONE of your scripture references. They were not interpreted using 1 Corinthians 2:1-16. See the comments about the natural man, and in 16, those who have the "mind" (spiritual wisdom, insight, and understanding) of Christ. No one interpreting scripture under the leadership of the Holy Spirit could possibly come to the conclusion that we are saved by grace through faith, the GIFT of God, then add to that a series of other requirements.
                Last edited by dispen4ever; Sep 10th 2008, 07:58 PM. Reason: Add Travis' name.

                Comment


                • #9
                  And this is what I see as the grand paradox. A great case can be made for either side using scripture. Both sides will describe the salvation state of the same set of people the same way. They are two ways of describing the same situation, despite appearing to be at odds with one another.
                  This is at the heart of the matter. The utter failure to rightly (spiritually) divide scripture. When one understands that, the TRUTH jumps off the Bible pages, and the paradox disappears.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Many on the extreme OSAS side believe you can live however you want once you have said a prayer (doesn't make since to me, as Christ said "go and sin no more..." for a reason)
                    I have NEVER met anyone, heard anyone, conversationally, on radio, on TV, in church, in small group Bible study, in Sunday School, or anywhere else the OSAS group meets, say anything like that. On the contrary, they point out the importance of living the Christian life before God and humankind as the compelling influence in their lives. Do they slip into sin? Yes! I sin when a sinful thought crosses my mind! I sin when I'm clicking channels and linger too long on one with a lovely lady on the screen! I sin when I make a comment that I think is funny, but could very well be suggestive to a member of the opposite sex! However, God skillfully inserted 1 John 1:9 in scripture. That is where I run too, often several times daily. I praise God that He is faithful and just to forgive me, to restore our fellowship, and to continue to walk with me all the days of my life, NEVER NEVER NEVER letting go of me ~~~~ and Travis, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to let go of Him! He is the one holding on! Shall I continue to sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! Thank you Father that your promise of eternal security for the authentically born-again Believer (ABAB) is TRUE and will NEVER be withdrawn.

                    To finish up, I can take every scripture Travis posted and, in fellowship with the Holy Spirit, provide the proper interpretation. LORD, that all would come to that place where spiritual interpretation of scripture is A-1!!! To that place where the personal pronoun "I" refers to the spiritual nature, not the flesh!!! Amen and Amen.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Since this post resides in "Maturing in Christ" I believe we should not debate this strictly from a theological/theoretical point of view. Don't get me wrong, I am willing and able to do that. However, in terms of Christian Maturity these debates can be daunting for those who are trying to desperately hold on to the faith.

                      The approach here is to look at the issue from the perspective of the casual "folk" Christian, verses the genuine believer and the attitude each might take in view of a verse like Romans 10:9-10 (otherwise known as TNT)

                      Put yourself in the shoes of a young Christian who heard this verse and believed it with all her heart. And as she faces the hard exigence of day-to-day life, she clings to this promise to keep going. If I were to give her a theological response to Romans 10:9-10, I might explain that, while confession and belief are important to the genuine believer, this verse does not describe the sum and substance of genuine belief. There's more to the Christian life than that.

                      The danger, of course, is that a strictly theological explanation, one which seems to undercut a long held promise, one that appears to bring down the standard in the field of battle, might do more harm than good.

                      On the other hand, a man who has been led to believe that a single, one-time, confession of faith, is all there is to the Christian life, needs to hear the rest of the story and may have been misled to think he became a genuine believer at that moment, free to live like hell in the mean time. This person needs to hear that faith is not something we accomplish or grow out of.

                      Even I need to be reminded that knowing the truth is not enough. Not only must I know the truth, but I must BE the truth, I must live the truth each and every day.

                      I'm grateful for times when people remind me of the grace and faithfulness of God, like Partaker of Christ did. It's easy to become discouraged in our walk. And sometimes as we argue against "easy believism" we run the danger of being discouraging to others who might need to hear what Paul said about God and his faithfulness -- I will never leave you nor forsake you.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Amen

                        I would have to agre with BroRog. These type of dicussions can get very heated at times. This type of "discussion" is not really edifying, to new believers especially. Maybe this same topic should be posted in the Bible Chat section. If not, let's remember to have our words seasoned with salt, that they may minister grace to the hearers.

                        Goph

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Eternal Security...

                          Originally posted by TravisJ View Post
                          Having salvation, does not mean that you are saved... We have to live life without sin, we endureth to the ending... This is a race, we finish when we die, not when we get born again in water, and in the spirit.

                          Again i have a lot of scripture from the Holy Bible to back this up. KJV is what i read from.

                          Hebrews 12:14-15
                          14. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. 15. Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God. ( You can't fail unmerited favor, because its unmerited, but you can fail if you dont allow God's devine influence to reflect in your life!)

                          Galations 5:4
                          4. Christ is become of no effect in you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

                          So you can fall from grace, and you once saved but no longer.

                          2 Peter 3:17
                          17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from you own stedfastness.

                          2 Peter 2:20-22
                          20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21. For it had been bettter for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to here wallowing in the mire.

                          Hebrew 10:38-39
                          38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
                          39 But we are not of them draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

                          Revelation 3:5
                          5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but i will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

                          Matthew 10:22
                          22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

                          Mark 13:13
                          same as Matthew 10:22

                          Hebrew 3:12-17
                          12 Take heed, brethen, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. 15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your heart, as in the provocation. 16. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17. But with whom he greived forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

                          Romans 2:7
                          7 To them who by patient continuence in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

                          Hebrews 3:14
                          14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. (I said this twice because it is important, all is important but i just want yall to know that last part.)

                          Overcomers: Jesus spoke to the Churches, to the born again believers and told them that they'd make it only if they overcome!

                          Revelation 2:5-7 (Ephesus)
                          5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

                          Revelation 2:10 (Smyrna)
                          10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and i will give thee a crown of life.

                          Revelatoin 2:17 (Pergamus)
                          17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that recieveth it.

                          Revelation 2:26 (Thyatira)
                          26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

                          Revelation 3:21-22 (Laodicea)
                          21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

                          Luke 15:21-24 (parable)
                          21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in they sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23. And bring hither the fattest calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24. For this my son was dead, and is alive again, he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

                          Jude 3-7 (All Jude had for examples was the old testament)
                          3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was neeful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (expressing lust or lewdness or excuse to sin), and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved his people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day. 7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

                          The only thing God will NOT forgive is Blaspheme the Holy Ghost: (another proof that once in grace always in grace is falste teaching)

                          Hebrew 6:4-6
                          4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



                          That took alot of of typing... but i just hope you guys will understand and take this and hide this word in your heart.... and grow stronger every day by doing so.. Hide the Word in your heart, so thou shalt not sin against God. God will forgive every sin but blaspheme, if you have sin in your life, turn it over to God, fall on your knees into repentance, Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand...

                          God Bless all of you, and I hope people grow encouraged through with the Word.. For I come to encourage people to the Truth, not to discourage if i sound so I do not. It is kind of hard to tell a distinct attitude on the computer, but if you meet me in person, you would know i am not so..
                          Amen!!! I started a thread on this same thing in teh Apologetics section entitled "Eternal Security" in attmept to expalin how to be truly eternally secure.

                          Bless You!!!
                          "...For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict, or resist...Luke 21:15"...I am looking for the remnant....sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                            Since this post resides in "Maturing in Christ" I believe we should not debate this strictly from a theological/theoretical point of view. Don't get me wrong, I am willing and able to do that. However, in terms of Christian Maturity these debates can be daunting for those who are trying to desperately hold on to the faith.

                            The approach here is to look at the issue from the perspective of the casual "folk" Christian, verses the genuine believer and the attitude each might take in view of a verse like Romans 10:9-10 (otherwise known as TNT)

                            Put yourself in the shoes of a young Christian who heard this verse and believed it with all her heart. And as she faces the hard exigence of day-to-day life, she clings to this promise to keep going. If I were to give her a theological response to Romans 10:9-10, I might explain that, while confession and belief are important to the genuine believer, this verse does not describe the sum and substance of genuine belief. There's more to the Christian life than that.

                            The danger, of course, is that a strictly theological explanation, one which seems to undercut a long held promise, one that appears to bring down the standard in the field of battle, might do more harm than good.

                            On the other hand, a man who has been led to believe that a single, one-time, confession of faith, is all there is to the Christian life, needs to hear the rest of the story and may have been misled to think he became a genuine believer at that moment, free to live like hell in the mean time. This person needs to hear that faith is not something we accomplish or grow out of.

                            Even I need to be reminded that knowing the truth is not enough. Not only must I know the truth, but I must BE the truth, I must live the truth each and every day.

                            I'm grateful for times when people remind me of the grace and faithfulness of God, like Partaker of Christ did. It's easy to become discouraged in our walk. And sometimes as we argue against "easy believism" we run the danger of being discouraging to others who might need to hear what Paul said about God and his faithfulness -- I will never leave you nor forsake you.
                            Great Post Brother!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Something I would like to add: If one chooses to take the passage from Hebrews 6 and suggest that the writer is stating that a person who is truly saved can lose their salvation, then one also has to believe that if someone does lose their salvation, they can never get it back. The passage says that if someone falls away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, yet none of the people who use this passage to defend loss of salvation would say that once you lose it, it's gone forever.

                              I also agree that there is no scripture which suggests that a person can be born again and again and again...

                              Comment

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