Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

    Originally posted by Mathetes View Post
    If it were left solely up to man's choice, all men, not just the majority, would reject Christ.
    I would have to say that I disagree. Some have chosen to follow after God.

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

      Originally posted by Bandit View Post
      I would have to say that I disagree. Some have chosen to follow after God.
      But not because he was left to himself. No man can come to God unless he is drawn by God. Both Arminians and Calvinist agree on that point as RK pointed out. Left to himself, man will not seek after God. But God doesn't leave man to himself so some do seek after Him.
      Matt 9:13
      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
      NASU

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

        Originally posted by Bandit View Post
        I would have to say that I disagree. Some have chosen to follow after God.
        Of course they have. But why? Because they wanted to. And why did they want to? Because they were born again.

        If that is not true, and if people do not have to be born again to choose to follow after God, then there must be some part of man that is not corrupted by sin. What is it--the mind? the will? some other faculty? What part of man is so untouched by the fall that he will choose Christ and repent all on his own, without being regenerated?
        Take the gospel quiz: http://www.gospelquiz.org
        Blog: http://bereanbailey.wordpress.com

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

          Originally posted by Mathetes View Post
          Of course they have. But why? Because they wanted to. And why did they want to? Because they were born again.

          If that is not true, and if people do not have to be born again to choose to follow after God, then there must be some part of man that is not corrupted by sin. What is it--the mind? the will? some other faculty? What part of man is so untouched by the fall that he will choose Christ and repent all on his own, without being regenerated?
          Neither Calvinists nor Arminians believe that any part of man is not touched by the fall and corrupted by sin. Both views agree that God initiates salvation, and that man is wholly unable to and will not seek God without God's first intervention. They disagree on the way to describe that initial intervention.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

            Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
            Neither Calvinists nor Arminians believe that any part of man is not touched by the fall and corrupted by sin. Both views agree that God initiates salvation, and that man is wholly unable to and will not seek God without God's first intervention. They disagree on the way to describe that initial intervention.
            Right. And they disagree on who God intervenes with.
            Matt 9:13
            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
            NASU

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

              Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
              Neither Calvinists nor Arminians believe that any part of man is not touched by the fall and corrupted by sin. Both views agree that God initiates salvation, and that man is wholly unable to and will not seek God without God's first intervention. They disagree on the way to describe that initial intervention.
              I'd also add that at bottom their respective doctrines of man differ vastly. Arminians believe that the final decision for salvation is left to the sinner. It is up to him or her to respond favorably to prevenient grace. And therein lies the inconsistency in Arminianism. If Arminians believe--as you say--that there is no part of man untouched by the fall and corrupted by sin, then man's final decision about the gospel will always amount to rejection of Christ. If God does not regenerate the sinner but only gives him a "little push," so to speak, and leaves it all up to him in the end without changing him, then he will continue to reject Christ. Why would he accept Christ if he is still a rebel at heart? Why would he change his mind (repent) if his will is wholly bent on fighting God and continuing to sin? Apart from being changed, man cannot respond favorably to this prevenient grace. All he will do is reject it.

              And that is why I think Arminianism is actually hopeless when seen in that light. The salvation plan it represents is like a very wide bridge that spans only halfway across a chasm. Nobody could ever get across to the other side of that chasm because there is nothing to change them so that they receive Christ. Calvinism, OTOH, represents a salvation plan that is like a narrow bridge but goes all the way across the chasm. God has given a body of believers to His Son, and those believers most assuredly will come to Christ, and Christ most assuredly will raise them up at the last day. That is mercy. That is grace.
              Take the gospel quiz: http://www.gospelquiz.org
              Blog: http://bereanbailey.wordpress.com

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

                Which demonstrates that you wholly do not understand the concept of prevenient grace.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

                  Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
                  Which demonstrates that you wholly do not understand the concept of prevenient grace.
                  Well, then, by all means, enlighten me. What is prevenient grace in your view? How have I gotten it wrong?
                  Take the gospel quiz: http://www.gospelquiz.org
                  Blog: http://bereanbailey.wordpress.com

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

                    Let's let Arminius speak for himself:

                    Article 4 of the Remonstrance...

                    "That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ, but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places." (Article 4 of the Remonstrance)

                    The false statement that says that if the decision is left up to man that man will always choose to reject God makes God weaker than sin, makes the drawing and wooing of the Holy Spirit weaker than man's nature...If God, through His Grace, does not draw all men to himself (as the Gospels and Titus teach), then I do not want to have anything to do with that God.

                    Prevenient grace is grace so profound that it can permit a dead man to respond to that which he could otherwise not even conceive.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

                      Originally posted by Mathetes View Post
                      If it were left solely up to man's choice, all men, not just the majority, would reject Christ.
                      Originally posted by Bandit View Post
                      I would have to say that I disagree. Some have chosen to follow after God.
                      Originally posted by Mathetes View Post
                      Of course they have. But why? Because they wanted to. And why did they want to? Because they were born again.
                      Hello Mathetes,

                      That is not much of a (human) choice then, is it? (For if it is as you just said, then the only real choice is by God.)

                      I did not really explain my line of reasoning in my earlier post, and it is obvious that I need to. Unless God chooses to allow man a choice - then there is no human choice! So there really is no such thing as "If it were left solely up to man's choice" as you stated earlier. For man to have a "choice", God must first have given him a "choice". (It really is hard to make a non-existent choice.) So when man chooses, it is not a choice made in a vacuum; it is a human choice based upon God's previous choice to allow that human choice to exist.




                      Originally posted by Mathetes View Post
                      If that is not true, and if people do not have to be born again to choose to follow after God, then there must be some part of man that is not corrupted by sin. What is it--the mind? the will? some other faculty? What part of man is so untouched by the fall that he will choose Christ and repent all on his own, without being regenerated?
                      Here you are assuming the reformed position of (total) depravity. If you assume it, then logically your position does follow; but if your basic assumption is wrong, then your logic has a faulty foundation. I suggest that your fundamental assumption is incorrect.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

                        Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
                        Let's let Arminius speak for himself:

                        Article 4 of the Remonstrance...

                        "That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ, but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places." (Article 4 of the Remonstrance)
                        Notice his words, "it is not irresistible." That means, of course, that man can resist it, which means that the final decision is up to the unregenerated man. So my point stands.

                        The false statement that says that if the decision is left up to man that man will always choose to reject God makes God weaker than sin,
                        No it doesn't. It makes God out to be stronger than sin because God overcomes that resistance by regenerating the elect.

                        Prevenient grace is grace so profound that it can permit a dead man to respond to that which he could otherwise not even conceive.
                        The problem is that in this view it only permits, but does not guarantee it by changing the person so that they come to Christ. Sorry, but my argument is sound. If Arminianism were true, then nobody would be saved because in the Arminian view, prevenient grace is not a grace that changes the sinner but merely permits him to come to Christ. Mere permission is not enough. Rebellion against God is in his nature, since the nature is sinful, so he needs to have his nature changed in order to submit to God.
                        Take the gospel quiz: http://www.gospelquiz.org
                        Blog: http://bereanbailey.wordpress.com

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

                          Yada, yada, yada.

                          I'll sign out of this discussion here.

                          I choose not to follow a cosmic rapist.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

                            Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
                            Yada, yada, yada.

                            I'll sign out of this discussion here.

                            I choose not to follow a cosmic rapist.
                            Neither do I. I choose to follow the sovereign God. Thanks for discussing this.
                            Take the gospel quiz: http://www.gospelquiz.org
                            Blog: http://bereanbailey.wordpress.com

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

                              Originally posted by Bandit View Post
                              I would have to say that I disagree. Some have chosen to follow after God.
                              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                              But not because he was left to himself. No man can come to God unless he is drawn by God. Both Arminians and Calvinist agree on that point as RK pointed out.
                              Yes, thankfully God does not leave us completely alone in the dark. He chooses to reveal Himself so that we have the choice to respond. There can be no human choice unless there is first a divine choice. What Arminians and Calvinists disagree on is how and what God chose to reveal? (And whether God's choice includes allowing man a choice.)



                              Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                              Left to himself, man will not seek after God. But God doesn't leave man to himself so some do seek after Him.
                              Yes, but unless God reveals something of Himself, there is no choice. (As an example, do you seek after the strang, fluffy, pink animals crawling on your ceilings and walls?) Unless one has some notion that something exists (or may exist), a sane person doesn't even have the choice to "seek" it.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Can Calvinism and Arminianism be reconciled?

                                Originally posted by Bandit View Post
                                Hello Mathetes,

                                That is not much of a (human) choice then, is it? (For if it is as you just said, then the only real choice is by God.)
                                No, not necessarily. Man chooses to follow God because God chooses him first. Two choices. The question is the order in which they occur.

                                I did not really explain my line of reasoning in my earlier post, and it is obvious that I need to. Unless God chooses to allow man a choice - then there is no human choice!
                                Certainly God gives people a choice. People are free to accept Christ or to reject Him; to repent or to continue in sin.

                                So there really is no such thing as "If it were left solely up to man's choice" as you stated earlier. For man to have a "choice", God must first have given him a "choice". (It really is hard to make a non-existent choice.) So when man chooses, it is not a choice made in a vacuum; it is a human choice based upon God's previous choice to allow that human choice to exist.
                                I can agree with that, but with this additional thought: When man chooses to follow God in true faith and repentance, it is not only because God has allowed that choice to exist, but it is also because God has changed their will such that now they desire to choose God. Man is bound by his nature, so that nature needs to be changed in order to take a different direction. Thankfully, God not only permits a choice to exist but also changes the nature of some so that they will make that choice.

                                Here you are assuming the reformed position of (total) depravity. If you assume it, then logically your position does follow; but if your basic assumption is wrong, then your logic has a faulty foundation. I suggest that your fundamental assumption is incorrect.
                                I'm not surprised there. One's doctrine of man will drive one's soteriology. That's why I always go back to anthropology when discussing this issue with people. Soteriology is rooted in anthropology, among other things. Arminians have to prove their doctrine of man biblically just as much as Calvinists do.
                                Take the gospel quiz: http://www.gospelquiz.org
                                Blog: http://bereanbailey.wordpress.com

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X