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  • Discussion Fruits of the Spirit

    I'd like to explore the concept of the fruits of the Spirit in terms of our "cooperation" with the Spirit and what that might look like. Is it possible to see the fruits of the spirit in terms of the believer and the Holy Spirit working together to produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control, which is a result not obtainable by either the believer or the Holy Spirit independently? And if so, can we give examples of how this works in practical terms in everyday life?

    To start the discussion, I would like to copy and paste a point I made in another thread.

    The spiritual gift of faith, it seems to me, relates to the ability to perform miracles under God's direction. We get a hint of this from Paul's word on the primacy of love,
    If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. (1Cor. 13:1-2)
    Paul associates the spiritual gift of faith with removing mountains, which he contrasts with love, which if a man does the first without having the second, he is nothing.

    Following this, he describes love and how love manifests itself and in that description he says that love "rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things." In this we learn that there is a kind of faith that removes mountains, but there is also a kind of faith that rejoices in the truth and believes all things. Paul considers the first apart from love, but he considers the second to be an aspect of love and a rejoicing in the truth.

    The fruit of faith, then, must be substantially different than the gift of faith, in so much as a man with the gift of faith is nothing without love, which rejoices with the truth and believes all things. The man with the gift of faith, which will pass away, who does not also have the fruit of faith which will never pass away is empty and nothing.

    If there are "fruits" of the spirit, there must also be a "tree" of the spirit in the sense that love, hope, faith, gentleness, kindness etc. must be the consequence of something substantial in the inner man of the one who loves, hopes, etc. So, in some sense, these qualities of the spirit are characteristics of the man or woman, who is also in cooperation with the Holy Spirit who dwells with the believer.

    We can take this discussion any way you want to go. What are your thoughts?

  • #2
    Re: Fruits of the Spirit

    What about the parable of the sower of seed.
    Are we like the soil or the place where the seed falls ?
    In that even though the seed will do what it purposed the elements of the place where it falls may cause the fruit of the seed a early fate.

    Or is there another way to see the soil or the place where the seed falls ?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Fruits of the Spirit

      Originally posted by BroRog View Post
      I'd like to explore the concept of the fruits of the Spirit in terms of our "cooperation" with the Spirit and what that might look like. Is it possible to see the fruits of the spirit in terms of the believer and the Holy Spirit working together to produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control, which is a result not obtainable by either the believer or the Holy Spirit independently? And if so, can we give examples of how this works in practical terms in everyday life?
      This portion may need to be addressed more indepth. Here is why I say this... many secular people display all these examples of Fruit of the Holy Spirit, STRONGER in their lives, than many Christians. We know that any secular person has no Holy Spirit in them to enable them in any way, yet they are loving, full of joy, peacful, very patient etc.

      Now, I know when a Christian is weak and the world is falling on their shoulders yet through the enablement of of the Holy Spirit they display all the examples of Fruit you listed... then we can know it's through this enablement. A person who has lost their job, is loosing their home, car... about to be put out on the street yet they can go to curch and the faith they display and the joy they have "in" them and all this shines from them so others are lifted by the faith and joy from a Christian in such a bad situation... here we have something not attainable without the Holy Spirit.

      When we are put through such dire a trial as this example, the real us may emerge and if we give it all to God, rest in His hand. Then God will be allowed to shine forth as we are filled by Him to the point of overflowing.

      We all hear the "less of me, more of YOU" spoken by many Christians... well, the less of us... the more of Him we will be and by the Fruit, will be the evidence.

      Some of my thoughts... so far
      Slug1--out

      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Fruits of the Spirit

        Originally posted by Zack702 View Post
        What about the parable of the sower of seed.
        Are we like the soil or the place where the seed falls ?
        In that even though the seed will do what it purposed the elements of the place where it falls may cause the fruit of the seed a early fate.

        Or is there another way to see the soil or the place where the seed falls ?
        If I understand you correctly, you are associating the fruit of the Spirit found in Galatians with the fruit of perseverence found in the parable of the soils. Is this correct? If so, I think I like this and makes sense, though I think salvation is the ultimate fruit in Jesus' parable. The fruits of the Spirit would also seem to be the result of hearing God's word with a good an honest heart.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Fruits of the Spirit

          The fruits of the Holy Spirit cannot be produced without the Holy Spirits presence in the life of the believer. The works of the flesh are produced by those who have not the Holy Spirit.

          We are cautioned that we cannot serve two masters. Either we serve Christ and produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit or we serve the flesh and those works are manifest.

          For the cause of Christ
          Roger

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Fruits of the Spirit

            I know, I know the bible list 7 gifts and preachers teach the seven gifts, but I say to you who have that deposit of His Spirit in you, that every ability you posses, from language to walking, from owning a business to working your skills. All of them are gifts and if you do not use them to glorify your Father IE; building His kingdom on earth then you will be rewarded accordingly and justly.
            AND using those gifts will produce said Fruit.

            I say: That every ability that a person possess once having the Spirit of God deposited in them. ALL of their abilities become His gifts (the gifts of the Holy Spirit of God) and we will be rewarded according to how we use said gifts.
            Every part of you, if you have the deposit of His Spirit in you is to be used as a gift to our fellows, to work Fathers will upon this earth, not just the 7 gifts commonly refereed to as "the gifts" of the Holy Spirit, but every, EVERY single ability you posses is now a gift of His Holy Spirit.
            AND using those gifts will produce said Fruit.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Fruits of the Spirit

              Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
              This portion may need to be addressed more indepth. Here is why I say this... many secular people display all these examples of Fruit of the Holy Spirit, STRONGER in their lives, than many Christians. We know that any secular person has no Holy Spirit in them to enable them in any way, yet they are loving, full of joy, peacful, very patient etc.

              Now, I know when a Christian is weak and the world is falling on their shoulders yet through the enablement of of the Holy Spirit they display all the examples of Fruit you listed... then we can know it's through this enablement. A person who has lost their job, is loosing their home, car... about to be put out on the street yet they can go to curch and the faith they display and the joy they have "in" them and all this shines from them so others are lifted by the faith and joy from a Christian in such a bad situation... here we have something not attainable without the Holy Spirit.

              When we are put through such dire a trial as this example, the real us may emerge and if we give it all to God, rest in His hand. Then God will be allowed to shine forth as we are filled by Him to the point of overflowing.

              We all hear the "less of me, more of YOU" spoken by many Christians... well, the less of us... the more of Him we will be and by the Fruit, will be the evidence.

              Some of my thoughts... so far
              I think I hear what you are saying. You seem to be saying that since the Holy Spirit is working with us, our love, joy, peace and etc. goes beyond what the world would expect or experience, since by cooperation with the Spirit, we experience love, joy, peace, etc. even during the real hard times of suffering and hardship. Is that right?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Fruits of the Spirit

                Originally posted by notuptome View Post
                The fruits of the Holy Spirit cannot be produced without the Holy Spirits presence in the life of the believer. The works of the flesh are produced by those who have not the Holy Spirit.

                We are cautioned that we cannot serve two masters. Either we serve Christ and produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit or we serve the flesh and those works are manifest.

                For the cause of Christ
                Roger
                Isn't it true, though, that the believer has a "holy spirit" of sorts? I agree with you that the fruits of the Spirit are produced in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, but at the same time, I think that the Holy Spirit changes us such that we are different in some way. I mean, when we became believers wasn't there some kind of inner change that took place also?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Fruits of the Spirit

                  Originally posted by MoreMercy View Post
                  I know, I know the bible list 7 gifts and preachers teach the seven gifts, but I say to you who have that deposit of His Spirit in you, that every ability you posses, from language to walking, from owning a business to working your skills. All of them are gifts and if you do not use them to glorify your Father IE; building His kingdom on earth then you will be rewarded accordingly and justly.
                  AND using those gifts will produce said Fruit.

                  I say: That every ability that a person possess once having the Spirit of God deposited in them. ALL of their abilities become His gifts (the gifts of the Holy Spirit of God) and we will be rewarded according to how we use said gifts.
                  Every part of you, if you have the deposit of His Spirit in you is to be used as a gift to our fellows, to work Fathers will upon this earth, not just the 7 gifts commonly refereed to as "the gifts" of the Holy Spirit, but every, EVERY single ability you posses is now a gift of His Holy Spirit.
                  AND using those gifts will produce said Fruit.
                  Okay, I see what you are saying and I agree with you in a general sense. But the fruits of the spirit seem to be attributes that would apply in any area of life, whether personal life, business life or whatever. I mean, I understand what you are saying about how we are using our very existence to glorify God. And that is true, and I agree with it. But the fruits of the Spirit also describe something special about those who experience them, right?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Fruits of the Spirit

                    Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                    Okay, I see what you are saying and I agree with you in a general sense. But the fruits of the spirit seem to be attributes that would apply in any area of life, whether personal life, business life or whatever. I mean, I understand what you are saying about how we are using our very existence to glorify God. And that is true, and I agree with it. But the fruits of the Spirit also describe something special about those who experience them, right?
                    Thank you I am ever guessing if I leave my opinions understandable.
                    The fruit of the spirit is literally what its description implies 'its fruit'
                    IE;
                    Disobedient trees produce disobedient fruit of its own spirit.
                    Obedient trees produce obedient fruit of its own spirit. <--- fruit of the Holy Spirit


                    Do I understand your question correctly ?
                    Father bless.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Fruits of the Spirit

                      Originally posted by MoreMercy View Post
                      Thank you I am ever guessing if I leave my opinions understandable.
                      The fruit of the spirit is literally what its description implies 'its fruit'
                      IE;
                      Disobedient trees produce disobedient fruit of its own spirit.
                      Obedient trees produce obedient fruit of its own spirit. <--- fruit of the Holy Spirit


                      Do I understand your question correctly ?
                      Father bless.
                      Yes, you have. And I understand your point about the trees. Thanks.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Fruits of the Spirit

                        Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                        I'd like to explore the concept of the fruits of the Spirit in terms of our "cooperation" with the Spirit and what that might look like. Is it possible to see the fruits of the spirit in terms of the believer and the Holy Spirit working together to produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control, which is a result not obtainable by either the believer or the Holy Spirit independently? And if so, can we give examples of how this works in practical terms in everyday life?
                        I think that is exactly how it works. The fruit of the Spirit is yielded by us, so that in the least defines our participation in the matter. I believe that since Paul is teaching on the topic it shows that our understanding and cooperation in the Spirit is how this fruit is yielded. I don't think this means that patience is only found as a fruit of the Spirit, but rather that godly patience (that which is of and pleases God) is only found as a fruit of the Spirit.


                        Let's consider 2 Peter 1 on the matter as well: 2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

                        Peter says that we are partakers of the Holy Spirit (divine nature). I won't go into that passage in depth but I wanted to offer a lexicon for that word "partakers": ( http://studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=2844 )


                        Strongs 2844
                        1. a partner, associate, comrade, companion

                        Originally posted by BroRog
                        To start the discussion, I would like to copy and paste a point I made in another thread.
                        Originally posted by BroRog


                        The spiritual gift of faith, it seems to me, relates to the ability to perform miracles under God's direction. We get a hint of this from Paul's word on the primacy of love,
                        If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. (1Cor. 13:1-2)
                        Paul associates the spiritual gift of faith with removing mountains, which he contrasts with love, which if a man does the first without having the second, he is nothing.

                        Following this, he describes love and how love manifests itself and in that description he says that love "rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things." In this we learn that there is a kind of faith that removes mountains, but there is also a kind of faith that rejoices in the truth and believes all things. Paul considers the first apart from love, but he considers the second to be an aspect of love and a rejoicing in the truth.

                        The fruit of faith, then, must be substantially different than the gift of faith, in so much as a man with the gift of faith is nothing without love, which rejoices with the truth and believes all things. The man with the gift of faith, which will pass away, who does not also have the fruit of faith which will never pass away is empty and nothing.

                        If there are "fruits" of the spirit, there must also be a "tree" of the spirit in the sense that love, hope, faith, gentleness, kindness etc. must be the consequence of something substantial in the inner man of the one who loves, hopes, etc. So, in some sense, these qualities of the spirit are characteristics of the man or woman, who is also in cooperation with the Holy Spirit who dwells with the believer.

                        We can take this discussion any way you want to go. What are your thoughts?
                        I agree that the fruit of the Spirit are not "gifted" and are separate than a manifested Spiritual gift.

                        I was reading some commentaries recently on this fruit of faith, or faithfulness, so I will offer a couple of them since you brought it up. They differ a bit but I like the points given by each:

                        Martin Luther's Commentary on Galatians (love believes all things): ( http://studylight.org/com/mlg/view.c...ga&chapter=005 )

                        FAITH In listing faith among the fruits of the Spirit, Paul obviously does not mean faith in Christ, but faith in men. Such faith is not suspicious of people but believes the best. Naturally the possessor of such faith will be deceived, but he lets it pass. He is ready to believe all men, but he will not trust all men. Where this virtue is lacking men are suspicious, forward, and wayward and will believe nothing nor yield to anybody. No matter how well a person says or does anything, they will find fault with it, and if you do not humor them you can never please them. It is quite impossible to get along with them. Such faith in people therefore, is quite necessary. What kind of life would this be if one person could not believe another person?


                        Barnes' Notes on the New Testament (faithfulness): (http://studylight.org/com/bnn/view.c...erse=001#Ga5_1 )

                        Faith. On the meaning of the word faith, See Barnes "Mark 16:16". The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man--a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. It is probable that the word is used in this sense because the object of the apostle is not to speak of the feelings which we have towards God, so much as to illustrate the influences of the Spirit in directing and controlling our feelings towards men. True religion makes a man faithful. The Christian is faithful as a man; faithful as a neighbour, friend, father, husband, son. He is faithful to his contracts; faithful to his promises. No man can be a Christian who is not thus faithful; and all pretensions to being under the influences of the Spirit, when such fidelity does not exist, are deceitful and vain.
                        Watchinginawe

                        I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Fruits of the Spirit

                          Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
                          I think that is exactly how it works. The fruit of the Spirit is yielded by us, so that in the least defines our participation in the matter. I believe that since Paul is teaching on the topic it shows that our understanding and cooperation in the Spirit is how this fruit is yielded. I don't think this means that patience is only found as a fruit of the Spirit, but rather that godly patience (that which is of and pleases God) is only found as a fruit of the Spirit.

                          Let's consider 2 Peter 1 on the matter as well: 2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

                          Peter says that we are partakers of the Holy Spirit (divine nature). I won't go into that passage in depth but I wanted to offer a lexicon for that word "partakers": ( http://studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=2844 )


                          Strongs 2844
                          1. a partner, associate, comrade, companion

                          I agree that the fruit of the Spirit are not "gifted" and are separate than a manifested Spiritual gift.

                          I was reading some commentaries recently on this fruit of faith, or faithfulness, so I will offer a couple of them since you brought it up. They differ a bit but I like the points given by each:

                          Martin Luther's Commentary on Galatians (love believes all things): ( http://studylight.org/com/mlg/view.c...ga&chapter=005 )

                          FAITH In listing faith among the fruits of the Spirit, Paul obviously does not mean faith in Christ, but faith in men. Such faith is not suspicious of people but believes the best. Naturally the possessor of such faith will be deceived, but he lets it pass. He is ready to believe all men, but he will not trust all men. Where this virtue is lacking men are suspicious, forward, and wayward and will believe nothing nor yield to anybody. No matter how well a person says or does anything, they will find fault with it, and if you do not humor them you can never please them. It is quite impossible to get along with them. Such faith in people therefore, is quite necessary. What kind of life would this be if one person could not believe another person?


                          Barnes' Notes on the New Testament (faithfulness): (http://studylight.org/com/bnn/view.c...erse=001#Ga5_1 )

                          Faith. On the meaning of the word faith, See Barnes "Mark 16:16". The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man--a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. It is probable that the word is used in this sense because the object of the apostle is not to speak of the feelings which we have towards God, so much as to illustrate the influences of the Spirit in directing and controlling our feelings towards men. True religion makes a man faithful. The Christian is faithful as a man; faithful as a neighbour, friend, father, husband, son. He is faithful to his contracts; faithful to his promises. No man can be a Christian who is not thus faithful; and all pretensions to being under the influences of the Spirit, when such fidelity does not exist, are deceitful and vain.
                          I'm not sure where Martin Luther is coming from. It appears to me as if he thinks that "faith" in this instance is "saying you believe a person, whether you do or not, in order to make peace with him." I don't agree with that idea. I think we should believe those who are believable, trust the trustworthy, have faith in the faithful, and such.

                          I like where Barnes was going with his interpretation but after further reflection, I'm not certain that each item on the list must necessarily apply to our feelings for human beings. Our motivation for being faithful, it seems to me, can be our wish to imitate God and walk as his children, rather than a concern for the feelings of other people. I will be faithful because God is faithful, not because it will go well with my fellow man, though this is also a good thing. I'm not saying that being concerned for the welfare of others isn't a good thing. It is. But I'm asking whether faithfulness necessarily falls under that category, i.e. being concerned for the welfare of others, or whether faithfulness isn't something we do independantly of how it will affect others?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Fruits of the Spirit

                            Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                            Isn't it true, though, that the believer has a "holy spirit" of sorts? I agree with you that the fruits of the Spirit are produced in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, but at the same time, I think that the Holy Spirit changes us such that we are different in some way. I mean, when we became believers wasn't there some kind of inner change that took place also?
                            We were completely changed by our new birth in Christ. 2 Cor 5:17 We could do no good thing in our unregenerate state. All of our water was from a bitter well if you will. Rom 3:10-12 Every believer has The Holy Spirit as I do not know what you mean by "a holy spirit".

                            Our working is now done not by our will but by the will of God. Eph 2:10 describs us a His workmanship created unto good works.

                            For the cause of Christ
                            Roger

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Fruits of the Spirit

                              Originally posted by notuptome View Post
                              We were completely changed by our new birth in Christ. 2 Cor 5:17 We could do no good thing in our unregenerate state. All of our water was from a bitter well if you will. Rom 3:10-12 Every believer has The Holy Spirit as I do not know what you mean by "a holy spirit".

                              Our working is now done not by our will but by the will of God. Eph 2:10 describs us a His workmanship created unto good works.

                              For the cause of Christ
                              Roger
                              What I mean is that each of us has our own spirit. The spirit of each child of God has become sanctified by the Holy Spirit. And as such, each child of God has a "holy spirit" of his own, if you will. (I'm not trying to be weird, it's just a play on words, based on Romans 8.)

                              Comment

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