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  • Why are things the way they are?

    So I just got done watching a show about Andrew McAuley, an adventurer who died trying to kayak from Australia to New Zealand back in 2007. This man after crossing tremendously rough seas died within the sight of land leaving his wife and son. It's one of the saddest stories I have ever heard.

    My question is why are things the way they are? Why did this person die so close to land and not in the toughest part of his trip that was already past? Why did he die at all? Why is there sin in this world is what I'm really asking. Why did God create this world knowing that people will die and go to hell? God is all powerful right? So why when Adam sinned didn't God just get rid of the sin? Why did God create Adam in the first place? Doesn't it seem that the whole world would have been better off if it were never created?

    Yeah some people go to heaven and that's great but a whole lot of people go to hell forever and I don't understand why God lets this happen. Could he not stop all of this if he wanted to? Then why doesn't he? Why are things the way they are and why can't they be different?
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  • #2
    Hey there.

    All I can say is that we've got our whole lives to come to Christ -- and however long that life is, it's long enough to hear of Him, and to start following Him. I think we could invert your questions, really.... why do people ignore God? Why do they reject Christ? Why would a drowning man reject a flotation device.... maybe because he was wanting a blue one, and the one tossed out to him was red? Why, in our entire lifetime, can't so many of us give God just the tiniest bit of a chance to work in our hearts?

    We don't know the time of our death, or the hour. All we can know is that Christ wants us before it's too late. God's righteous. He gives us all the chances possible. We're all appointed to die.... but even more significantly, God wants us to LIVE. For Him. In the time we have. And if and when we do, we can live for Him for always.

    I know that none of it "seems fair", that people should go to hell.... But it isn't fair that God should send His son to earth, that Christ should die for us, and that we should reject that and still expect, somehow, to get to heaven.

    All the more reason, I think, for Christians to share the gospel. We don't know if the person we're talking to has 10 minutes left to get to know Christ, or a year, or ten years, or a few decades or more..... all we have is the here and now to share His love in. And it wouldn't be "fair" to those we encounter if we DON'T share that love. We might be thinking "that guy was on such a long journey, but now he sees the shore and his life will get better".... only to watch him die before he reaches shore. We can't assume that those we meet will have another chance to seize hope, and that's why we need to offer it to them while we can.

    That's the best way I know of understanding some of this. Things are the way they are because of human choice..... so lets make the best choices we can, and live for Christ so that others want to, also.
    -- Your ~sister~ in Christ.... a "Kaffinated Kittykat"!!

    ROMANS 5:8. Forgiven. Freed. Humbled. Amazed. Grateful. Relying on Christ.

    Love is not a place to come and go as we please
    It's a house we enter in, then commit to never leave
    So lock the door behind you, and throw away the key
    We'll work it out together, let it bring us to our knees.....
    Warren Barfield



    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CoffeeCat View Post
      Hey there.

      All I can say is that we've got our whole lives to come to Christ -- and however long that life is, it's long enough to hear of Him, and to start following Him. I think we could invert your questions, really.... why do people ignore God? Why do they reject Christ? Why would a drowning man reject a flotation device.... maybe because he was wanting a blue one, and the one tossed out to him was red? Why, in our entire lifetime, can't so many of us give God just the tiniest bit of a chance to work in our hearts?

      We don't know the time of our death, or the hour. All we can know is that Christ wants us before it's too late. God's righteous. He gives us all the chances possible. We're all appointed to die.... but even more significantly, God wants us to LIVE. For Him. In the time we have. And if and when we do, we can live for Him for always.

      I know that none of it "seems fair", that people should go to hell.... But it isn't fair that God should send His son to earth, that Christ should die for us, and that we should reject that and still expect, somehow, to get to heaven.

      All the more reason, I think, for Christians to share the gospel. We don't know if the person we're talking to has 10 minutes left to get to know Christ, or a year, or ten years, or a few decades or more..... all we have is the here and now to share His love in. And it wouldn't be "fair" to those we encounter if we DON'T share that love.

      That's the best way I know of understanding some of this. Things are the way they are because of human choice..... so lets make the best choices we can, and live for Christ so that others want to, also.
      But why didn't God make it so he didn't have to send his son? He wasn't forced to was he? Can't God reverse all the wrong? Can't he destroy hell and satan? Why did God create a world where there is sin and suffering and an afterworld where there is eternal punishment for some who don't even know what they are rejecting?
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      • #4
        It came down to human choice. That was God's bottom line, it seems. He COULD make it so that we ALWAYS choose Him and we never sin..... but after all, sin is defined as the absence of good. Sin happens when we don't choose God. If God were to take sin away, He'd be taking away our right to choose Him or not choose Him. If He took away the CONSEQUENCES (ie, eternity without Him)... He wouldn't be Holy, and He wouldn't be respecting the fact that some humans don't WANT to be with Him for eternity.

        It goes both ways. Keep Earth paradise, and we NEVER choose on our own. Take away ANY consequences for sin, and God ends up CONDONING sin. If God were to keep Heaven and, say, simply extinguish those who don't believe.... with no punishment other than their non-existence... He'd be doing the very thing He can't do: He'd be destroying something He made for Himself.

        By giving us a choice.... He's giving us freedom. And it's a hard, dangerous freedom with a lot of responsibility.

        I know that's hard to accept. It's hard to admit that we're all responsible for making the choices we do. But it's the truth. We need to step up and start turning to Him. We need to show compassion to those without Him, showing them why they SHOULD want Him.
        -- Your ~sister~ in Christ.... a "Kaffinated Kittykat"!!

        ROMANS 5:8. Forgiven. Freed. Humbled. Amazed. Grateful. Relying on Christ.

        Love is not a place to come and go as we please
        It's a house we enter in, then commit to never leave
        So lock the door behind you, and throw away the key
        We'll work it out together, let it bring us to our knees.....
        Warren Barfield



        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by CoffeeCat View Post
          It came down to human choice. That was God's bottom line, it seems. He COULD make it so that we ALWAYS choose Him and we never sin..... but after all, sin is defined as the absence of good. Sin happens when we don't choose God. If God were to take sin away, He'd be taking away our right to choose Him or not choose Him. If He took away the CONSEQUENCES (ie, eternity without Him)... He wouldn't be Holy, and He wouldn't be respecting the fact that some humans don't WANT to be with Him for eternity.

          It goes both ways. Keep Earth paradise, and we NEVER choose on our own. Take away ANY consequences for sin, and God ends up CONDONING sin. If God were to keep Heaven and, say, simply extinguish those who don't believe.... with no punishment other than their non-existence... He'd be doing the very thing He can't do: He'd be destroying something He made for Himself.

          By giving us a choice.... He's giving us freedom. And it's a hard, dangerous freedom with a lot of responsibility.

          I know that's hard to accept. It's hard to admit that we're all responsible for making the choices we do. But it's the truth. We need to step up and start turning to Him. We need to show compassion to those without Him, showing them why they SHOULD want Him.
          Well all of this is assuming we have freedom. Some would contend we don't but even if we do all this still doesn't explain why God created things the way they are. I mean, sin isn't some force that God is bound to is it? So why doesn't he get rid of it? And if sending people to hell because of sin is the only way to punish a person then why did God create the world at all?
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          • #6
            Brck....


            mind if I ask you what prompted this thread? Are you having problems with a friend who didn't accept Christ before they died.... or family members? There are just a lot of hypotheticals here... and sometimes the hardest time we humans have is when we think something's not fair at the same time as we're hurting inside about something. It makes it all the worse. So just in case something's tearing you up that's personal, even if you don't want to share.... I'm praying for ya.
            -- Your ~sister~ in Christ.... a "Kaffinated Kittykat"!!

            ROMANS 5:8. Forgiven. Freed. Humbled. Amazed. Grateful. Relying on Christ.

            Love is not a place to come and go as we please
            It's a house we enter in, then commit to never leave
            So lock the door behind you, and throw away the key
            We'll work it out together, let it bring us to our knees.....
            Warren Barfield



            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
              Well all of this is assuming we have freedom. Some would contend we don't but even if we do all this still doesn't explain why God created things the way they are. I mean, sin isn't some force that God is bound to is it? So why doesn't he get rid of it? And if sending people to hell because of sin is the only way to punish a person then why did God create the world at all?
              No, sin isn't some force God's bound to. Sin is the absence of good; the absence of God. God isn't bound to that which negates Him; that wouldn't make sense. He can't get "rid" of our decisions against Him without getting rid of our choice.

              I believe we do have freedom, but that's a debate for another thread, I think.

              If you're trying to ask "why doesn't God take away our temptation to sin".... the answer is, I don't know. Maybe because when we're tempted.... turning away from it and turning to Christ is that much sweeter. Maybe, in some ways, to be tempted strengthens us. We learn to say no to evil and yes to Christ. Not all of us learn that, but those of us who do get stronger.

              So..... Brck..... why do YOU think things are the way they are? As a Christian, if someone were to ask you the same questions you've asked, how would you answer?
              -- Your ~sister~ in Christ.... a "Kaffinated Kittykat"!!

              ROMANS 5:8. Forgiven. Freed. Humbled. Amazed. Grateful. Relying on Christ.

              Love is not a place to come and go as we please
              It's a house we enter in, then commit to never leave
              So lock the door behind you, and throw away the key
              We'll work it out together, let it bring us to our knees.....
              Warren Barfield



              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CoffeeCat View Post
                Brck....


                mind if I ask you what prompted this thread? Are you having problems with a friend who didn't accept Christ before they died.... or family members? There are just a lot of hypotheticals here... and sometimes the hardest time we humans have is when we think something's not fair at the same time as we're hurting inside about something. It makes it all the worse. So just in case something's tearing you up that's personal, even if you don't want to share.... I'm praying for ya.
                No, it's nothing personal (thankfully). It was the show and just me thinking about all the people that are and will suffer on earth and go to hell to suffer eternally that prompted me to think about these questions. I just don't understand why this has to be the way things are. I've never faced these questions before so that's why they are just pouring out. Thanks for the prayers by the way.
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                • #9
                  When I was new in Christ, I had the same question. So I did a study on what the Bible says about Satan. I had a thread about it here on the Board once a while back.

                  It didn't give me all the answers, but gave me a framework for understanding, that I could live with.

                  It's here http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...t=Who+is+Satan if you are interested.
                  Blessings,

                  Road Warrior


                  Proverbs 4:23
                  23 Guard your heart above all else,
                  for it determines the course of your life.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                    It's one of the saddest stories I have ever heard.

                    My question is why are things the way they are? Why did this person die so close to land and not in the toughest part of his trip that was already past? Why did he die at all? Why is there sin in this world is what I'm really asking.
                    What is the 'sin' that you mention, in regards to this post?

                    Was it the guy's selfishness in undertaking such a thing when he had a family that needed him?

                    And, is that the 'sad' part of the story?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Duane Morse View Post
                      What is the 'sin' that you mention, in regards to this post?

                      Was it the guy's selfishness in undertaking such a thing when he had a family that needed him?

                      And, is that the 'sad' part of the story?
                      Why do you have to be so mean? Almost every post of yours is a bitter one.

                      I was talking about sin in general.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CoffeeCat View Post
                        No, sin isn't some force God's bound to. Sin is the absence of good; the absence of God.
                        I politely disagree. I think that the scriptures, and not least the book of Romans, show that sin is not simply "the absence of good". Nor is it a moral category only.

                        Even though it goes deeply against our highly rationalistic way of thinking, I believe that Paul sees sin as a "real" force - a real part of the world, a "thing" that has existence independent of us and has its own properties.

                        The arguments under this position are somewhat lengthy. But just for starters, consider Romans 8:3

                        For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,

                        Paul is saying that, on the cross, sin is condemned. So sin cannot simply be "the absence of good" or even something like a moral category. It is a real force in the world that needed to be condemned, or de-activated, or defused, or defeated on the cross.

                        This idea is a little tough for modern westerners to digest, since it almost suggests that sin is like a "ghost" or "evil power" that lurks hidden in our universe. Well, I think that is indeed probably the case, at least to some extent.

                        There are other scriptural reasons to see sin as something more "real", almost "physical".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                          God is all powerful right? So why when Adam sinned didn't God just get rid of the sin?
                          I do not see any Scriptural evidence to suggest this notion that God is "all-powerful", at least in the sense of "doing anything He wants to do". It may well be the case, and I think it is, that God is indeed bound by His own prior commitments. If God decides to do X, He may be shutting the door on His doing Y, if X and Y are logically imcompatible.

                          In any event, I think that the "getting rid of sin" is one of these things - it is simply impossible for God to "snap his fingers" and clean the world of sin. So instead he engages in a millennia long project of cleansing the world of sin and defeating its power.

                          That project reached its climax on the cross, when sin was "condemned" and its power broken and diminished. And it will reach its ultimate conclusion when Jesus returns.

                          Even God has "work to do" to get rid of the sin that is in the world.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                            Why did God create a world where there is sin and suffering and an afterworld where there is eternal punishment for some who don't even know what they are rejecting?
                            God allowed sin, but didn't force it onto humankind. Man chose sin. God has given us a way out, and it isn't hidden or a secret as though we didn't have a clue as to our destiny.

                            Romans 1
                            18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
                            We have a way out. Nobody on this earth that has been, is or will be needs to suffer eternally if they simply "see the writing on the wall" - Christ Jesus. You know of Him, I know of Him. We are charged to take that information, that Good News, to those who do not know Him.

                            Man chooses to reject Christ by our very nature. Hence, we need to make that conscience choice to accept Him and walk in His ways. If we choose Him and remain in the faith, eternal damnation is removed from our eternal future. Eternal life reigns! That is the hope on which we hang our faith.


                            BricBin, you have a passion to see men live and be saved. You have a heart that all men should live. Forgive me if I don't remember if you already do, but share the hope and the way and the life of Christ with others! Chip away at the number who are against Christ and do what you can to turn them for Christ.
                            Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                            Not second or third, but first.
                            Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                            when He is the source of all hope,
                            when His love is received and freely given,
                            holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                            will all other things be added unto to you.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                              No, it's nothing personal (thankfully). It was the show and just me thinking about all the people that are and will suffer on earth and go to hell to suffer eternally that prompted me to think about these questions. I just don't understand why this has to be the way things are. I've never faced these questions before so that's why they are just pouring out. Thanks for the prayers by the way.
                              Hi BrckBrln,

                              I totally get what you are saying here. I've had similar thoughts in the past.

                              "God is Love, but why would he let someone suffer eternally in hell? If he really was Love, wouldn't he just stop the suffering?" etc. These are questions that atheists typically pull in defending their choice, and they do raise valid points. We have to be able to answer them.

                              For myself, I have come to the conclusion that God is in full control, and everything is going according to his divine plan. I truly believe there is a reason for everything - even the bad stuff - even Andrew McAuley's death. I think (correct me if I'm wrong BrckBrln) that you and I have similar beliefs in this regard - ie. lack of true free will, more like a caused will that is following God's plan. (I don't want to bring that debate into this thread though).

                              But why didn't God make it so he didn't have to send his son? He wasn't forced to was he?
                              Well, he sent his son because it was part of his plan. His plan does involve suffering, but it is ultimately for good. True he could have just snapped his fingers, and saved everyone from sin, but would we have learned anything? There was a purpose for Christ coming (other than the obvious one of saving us). He serves as the example for all of us to live by.

                              Can't God reverse all the wrong? Can't he destroy hell and satan?
                              Yes, God could reverse all wrong. He will destroy hell and satan (via the lake of fire). Ultimately, God will set everything right. But there is a time and purpose for everything. In the meantime, we have to endure life's trials.

                              Why did God create a world where there is sin and suffering and an afterworld where there is eternal punishment for some who don't even know what they are rejecting?
                              Well I have some ideas on this too, but I admit it is tough to reconcile. My views might be considered somewhat unorthodox. We always have to remember: God is LOVE.

                              Peace,
                              Legoman

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