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Disputed Scripture Passages

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  • Disputed Scripture Passages

    Beginning with the most universal passages, which scriptures are considered spurious additions within canon? Why? Discuss...

    1 John 5:7-8
    Mark 16:9-20

    Others?

  • #2
    Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

    Some doubt the inclusion of the story of the "woman caught in adultery" in John 7-8. Missing in a bunch of manuscripts.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

      I think it's because these certain passages were found to have not been included in the earliest verifiable manuscripts. Therefore, they were added later and are questionable.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

        As far as I know, Mark 16.9-20 is dubious to most because there was never a universal agreement to its authenticity early on. It's attested to pretty early, if I remember correctly, but there just wasn't any agreement.

        1 John 5.7-8 (the Comma Johanneum) is absolutely not Scriptural. It is not found in any Greek manuscripts before 1200 (or so), and the only reason it came to be included in a formal collection of Scripture is because the guy gathering it all, Erasmus, said he would only put it in if an original Greek manuscript containing it could be found; his detractors literally produced one from thin air, and Erasmus included it to keep to his word. It's a forgery at worst, and a reader's notation that mistakenly got mixed into the actual letter at best.

        The story of the woman caught in adultery (found in John 7-8) is, I don't believe, original to Scripture either. The story never had a universally agreed upon placement; it is found in varying placements within the gospel of John (indicating that many thought it belonged to John, but no one knew where it fit in), and even in copies of the gospel of Luke (the language of the account allegedly fits Luke's style better than John's). It's most common location is in John 7-8; but the account is abrupt when read with the surrounding context, and if removed, the surrounding passages flow together seamlessly. Maybe it is based on some oral tradition of something Jesus did, but the fact that it was constantly shifting around before being pushed into John 7-8 tells me that it isn't supposed to be there.
        To This Day

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        • #5
          Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

          These are the only 3 passages I'm aware of beyond scattered words. I was hoping to fish out an idea of who believed they were and weren't authentic.

          All kinds of spurious practices have come out of latter Mark. That's certainly a further hint at the need for an ejector seat.

          The Comma Johanneum was in then out then in, so that gets a giant asterisk, too.

          Is the John 7-8 adulteress the only other questionable passage?

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          • #6
            Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

            These are the big three for the New Testament, although several minor things can be found here and there, many of which are usually accounted for by Bible translations as I have noticed.

            For example, the "Lord's Prayer" seems to have been embellished in the gospel of Matthew over the course of a few centuries. John 5.4 seems to be an addition to some, and I would lean in agreement since the concept it presents does not (I think) mesh with Scripture. There are dozens and dozens of minor, single-word changes to the text, many of which can be determined as to when they came to be, and yet even some of these have snuck their way into several English translations.
            To This Day

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            • #7
              Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

              I'm thinking a comprehensive list of all spurious words/phrases/verses doesn't exist all in one place.

              I won't even address punctuation. :-O

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              • #8
                Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

                The long ending to the Lord's prayer is in dispute by many as well.
                For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

                If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

                Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

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                • #9
                  Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

                  1 John 5:8 of the KJV is wrong. Let us see what it says: "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood (1 John 5:8 KJV)..."
                  The lord is the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17). Is the spirit in earth? No, because the spirit is in heaven (Daniel 2:28).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

                    Originally posted by davidtriune View Post
                    1 John 5:8 of the KJV is wrong. Let us see what it says: "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood (1 John 5:8 KJV)..."
                    The lord is the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17). Is the spirit in earth? No, because the spirit is in heaven (Daniel 2:28).
                    I guess you didn't read verse 6 then.

                    1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

                    Don't you think the earth would be the logical location?

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                    • #11
                      Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

                      Originally posted by divaD View Post
                      I guess you didn't read verse 6 then.

                      1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

                      Don't you think the earth would be the logical location?
                      does 1 John 5:8 say that the spirit is in earth, yes or no?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

                        I am sorry, I was incorrect: the spirit is also in earth. This is because: "Christ is all, and in all (Col 3:11 ESV)." So 1 John 5:8 of the King James Version could be true.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

                          But 1 John 5:7 of the King James Version is wrong: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one (1 John 5:7 KJV)." How can three be one?

                          "the Lord is one (Mark 12:29 ESV)."

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                          • #14
                            Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

                            You can say, "they are one," but you cannot say, "these three are one." that's blasphemy.

                            edit: i made another error again, sorry: "these three are one in God" is also blasphemy.
                            Last edited by davidtriune; Jan 3rd 2011, 04:15 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Disputed Scripture Passages

                              To clarify, your meaning is that "these three are one in God" leads to trinity, whereas "these three are one" leads to oneness-modalism?
                              To This Day

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