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  • The Certainty of Hell

    Was reading an article lately where Brother Billy Graham some years back had been quoted as saying that Hell wasn't a literal fire. "I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in literal fire forever. I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched." This statement made some years back wasn't made very public and for a bit I thought he had been misquoted. Matter of fact it wasn't a misquote. It can be found in the April 10, 1983 Orlando Sentinel newspaper.

    And actually I didn't give it too much thought until I read a few of the posts from the past year or two made by some folks on this board that shared this doctrine. I would just like to see if someone may try defend this particular belief with scripture because I can't see it myself.

    Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    This would only be the beginning of the verses that would deny this position.

    1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

  • #2
    The Parson,

    I'm not sure what it is you would like to debate? Are you arguing that Mark 9:42-48 should be taken literally?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Coptichristian View Post
      The Parson,

      I'm not sure what it is you would like to debate? Are you arguing that Mark 9:42-48 should be taken literally?
      Are you saying it shouldn't? If so, explain why please...

      1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

      Comment


      • #4
        The fire will be real. I think the problem we have with thinking God would be unkind to send sinners to everlasting fire is that we don't have the same opinion of sin God does. The fact that God believes it deserves eternal fire means that it is much worse than we think.

        I really believe that when we see sin as deserving eternal punishment, we will be truly amazed and humbled by the love that God demonstrated in sending Christ to die for our sins.

        Comment


        • #5
          Read Luke 16:19-31
          19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by fsuwolf View Post
            Read Luke 16:19-31
            19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
            See, I believe that parts of this as definitely metaphorical. I mean, if you were writhing in agony of flames, would you request that someone dip their finger in water so you could "cool your tongue" with a wee little drop? That seems like something that shouldn't be taken literally word for word.
            Female. 17. Thinking hard about Christ.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by the Parson
              Are you saying it shouldn't? If so, explain why please...
              For starters, death itself will be cast into the lake of fire. Since death is not a physical entity, it stands to reason that the lake of fire is also non-physical, i.e. a spiritual state.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by faroutinmt View Post
                The fire will be real. I think the problem we have with thinking God would be unkind to send sinners to everlasting fire is that we don't have the same opinion of sin God does. The fact that God believes it deserves eternal fire means that it is much worse than we think.

                I really believe that when we see sin as deserving eternal punishment, we will be truly amazed and humbled by the love that God demonstrated in sending Christ to die for our sins.
                Hey, I can't argue with that reasoning. I would take it a step further in that: 2nd Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So I wouldn't say the God is the one who SENDS them there per se, but gives a choice to escape the place we are already condemned to. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. So the condemnation is already on us. In other words this, because of the curse is where you have to go, but you can make the choice not to.

                1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Parson View Post
                  Was reading an article lately where Brother Billy Graham some years back had been quoted as saying that Hell wasn't a literal fire. "I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in literal fire forever. I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched." This statement made some years back wasn't made very public and for a bit I thought he had been misquoted. Matter of fact it wasn't a misquote. It can be found in the April 10, 1983 Orlando Sentinel newspaper.

                  And actually I didn't give it too much thought until I read a few of the posts from the past year or two made by some folks on this board that shared this doctrine. I would just like to see if someone may try defend this particular belief with scripture because I can't see it myself.

                  Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

                  This would only be the beginning of the verses that would deny this position.

                  ok, I like Billy so I'll defend Billy.
                  God is a consuming fire, Deut. 4:24, 9:3 and Hebrews 12:29, He is also the Creator, so if a hell exists it is "of" Him. And God is Spirit((John 4:24))/Spirit of God (in many verses), so it must be a spiritual fire.
                  God is eternal (we only get "everlasting" life, which depends on His "eternal" life), matches "that never shall be quenched" in your verses.

                  "....because of the curse..."
                  What curse?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Teke View Post
                    What curse?
                    The sin curse Teke... What curse?

                    Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

                    And must be a spiritual fire ya'll? Really???
                    And death must not be an entity? Really???

                    OK, now we are getting somewhere. Going to the house right now. I'll answer all I can tomorrow folks.

                    1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Not wanting to get into a deep debate, but Jude 1:7 tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah are burning for an eternity, but we know they are not. Could there be some similarities with this passage and others that say the lost will burn eternally?
                      - RickH
                      Jude 1:7 (NKJV)
                      7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RickH View Post
                        Not wanting to get into a deep debate, but Jude 1:7 tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah are burning for an eternity, but we know they are not. Could there be some similarities with this passage and others that say the lost will burn eternally?
                        - RickH
                        Why would you think they are not when the scripture you just quoted says they are? The folks who inhabited Sodom and Gomorrah are facing the same fire that we will if we do not repent.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by faroutinmt View Post
                          Why would you think they are not when the scripture you just quoted says they are? The folks who inhabited Sodom and Gomorrah are facing the same fire that we will if we do not repent.


                          Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



                          Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
                          25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground


                          Jude 1:7 states they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. It looks to me as if Genesis 19:24 describes in detail what they suffered. The eternal would be God, since God is eternal, the fire would be the fire that the Lord rained down on them from heaven. This is what they suffered. And this equals the eternal fire. Nothing else to read into this. This is what the text clearly states. Nothing about anyone burning forever and ever. You won't find that in the text anywhere.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            question

                            We know hell is not on this physical plane because everything on this physical plane is ever-changing, and therefore not etneral; and we know hell is eternal. So if hell is not on this physical plane why would God use something that is "off this world", in a place "not of this world". That would contradict everything said about the eternal.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by The Parson View Post
                              Are you saying it shouldn't? If so, explain why please...

                              How do you walk to the computer without feet and how do you type without eyes. Egads, you must be perfect.

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