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  • 'hell fire' and 'lake of fire'?

    Sorry but I have some questions going through my head, and I hope some many be able to help answer.

    Is 'hell fire' the same fire as the 'lake of fire'?

    The wages of sin is death.

    Is this death, 'hell fire' (the first death) and/or the 'lake of fire'?

    Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (the second death)

    Will sin automatically send a person into the lake of fire, or shall some escape after the first death? (the wage of sin has been paid)

    If the first death automatically means, a person will go into the second death (lake of fire) Then the wages of sin, would be the second death.

    Given the above, did Jesus suffer the second death in order to redeem us?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    Sorry but I have some questions going through my head, and I hope some many be able to help answer.

    Is 'hell fire' the same fire as the 'lake of fire'?

    The wages of sin is death.

    Is this death, 'hell fire' (the first death) and/or the 'lake of fire'?

    Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (the second death)

    Will sin automatically send a person into the lake of fire, or shall some escape after the first death? (the wage of sin has been paid)

    If the first death automatically means, a person will go into the second death (lake of fire) Then the wages of sin, would be the second death.

    Given the above, did Jesus suffer the second death in order to redeem us?

    Actually, it's quite simple imo. The wages of sin is death...this applies to the second death, since the second death would be final and absolute. The first death would not be final for some, since some will inherit everlasting life.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


    Notice the distinction it makes here. We're seeing that death is everlasting because of sin, as opposed to life being everlasting because of Christ.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
      Sorry but I have some questions going through my head, and I hope some many be able to help answer.

      Is 'hell fire' the same fire as the 'lake of fire'?

      The wages of sin is death.

      Is this death, 'hell fire' (the first death) and/or the 'lake of fire'?

      Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (the second death)

      Will sin automatically send a person into the lake of fire, or shall some escape after the first death? (the wage of sin has been paid)

      If the first death automatically means, a person will go into the second death (lake of fire) Then the wages of sin, would be the second death.

      Given the above, did Jesus suffer the second death in order to redeem us?
      The answer to the first qustion must be both yes and no. Lazarus was suffering from the fires of Hades (Hell) but not yet the lake of fire. The lake of fire is of course metaphorical (not literal fire) as it both burns a purely spiritual being (Satan) and burns up 'death and hades'. None of these could be literally burned up.

      The wages of sin is death is interpreting God's sentence on those who disobeyed Him. Thus it strictly refers to physical death. It is appointed to all to die (both Christiand and non-Christian - apart from Christians alive at the end. Whether they are seen as 'dying' we are not told).

      The first death is probably physical death. Thus true Christians will be raised from that death. And they will certainly not suffer the second death which is 'final death' which will include the lake of fire.

      What Jesus suffered in order to redeem us is totally beyond our understanding. It is foolish of us to speculate on precisely what He endured. Any such speculation is pure guesswork, and I would add arrogant, guesswork. Sufficient to say that He bore all that was necessary for our redemption. There comes a limit beyond which putting forward our ideas dogmatically about God and what He experiences becomes little short of blasphemy. We have to recognise that there are limits of knowledge past which we cannot go.

      Best wishes

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
        Sorry but I have some questions going through my head, and I hope some many be able to help answer.

        Is 'hell fire' the same fire as the 'lake of fire'?

        The wages of sin is death.

        Is this death, 'hell fire' (the first death) and/or the 'lake of fire'?

        Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (the second death)

        Will sin automatically send a person into the lake of fire, or shall some escape after the first death? (the wage of sin has been paid)

        If the first death automatically means, a person will go into the second death (lake of fire) Then the wages of sin, would be the second death.

        Given the above, did Jesus suffer the second death in order to redeem us?
        Every human being suffers the first death. This is, suffers physical death as wages of sin inherited from Adam.

        The second death, I think, refers to eternal death.

        Blessings.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Instrument View Post
          Every human being suffers the first death. This is, suffers physical death as wages of sin inherited from Adam.

          The second death, I think, refers to eternal death.


          Then how do you explain this?


          1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
          16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
          17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by divaD View Post
            Then how do you explain this?


            1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
            16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
            17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            I do not understand well the question.


            All suffered the first death, but in the new birth back to life. That's why we have the right to the transformation of the body.

            The opposite occurs in those who had no resurrection of the soul.


            Blessings.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Instrument View Post
              I do not understand well the question.


              All suffered the first death, but in the new birth back to life. That's why we have the right to the transformation of the body.

              The opposite occurs in those who had no resurrection of the soul.


              Blessings.


              Originally posted by Instrument View Post
              Every human being suffers the first death. This is, suffers physical death as wages of sin inherited from Adam.

              When you stated this, I simply asked how you explain those that are alive and remain unto the coming Of the Lord, since none of these would experience a physical death. This would also go along with my first post in this thread. The wages of sin is death...this would be in relation to the second death, since not all will physically die, apparent by some still being alive at Christ's return. So, if the wages of sin is death, and if this is referring to the first physical death, then why doesn't everyone physically die. It must then be related to the second and final death.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                When you stated this, I simply asked how you explain those that are alive and remain unto the coming Of the Lord, since none of these would experience a physical death. This would also go along with my first post in this thread. The wages of sin is death...this would be in relation to the second death, since not all will physically die, apparent by some still being alive at Christ's return. So, if the wages of sin is death, and if this is referring to the first physical death, then why doesn't everyone physically die. It must then be related to the second and final death.
                But those who are alive and remain enjoy the same experience as those who have died, receving a spiritual body, so in a very real sense their physical bodies too have to 'die' in order to obtain their spiritual bodies.. That is the heart of the Gospel that we have died with Christ and rise with Him. Thus in some way the raptured must die, even if it is instantaneous death and resurrection. (Which of us would dare to say that we understand the experience that happens to the raptured whereby they divest themselves of their old body in order to receive their new body?).

                But however that may be, the wages of sin has been death ever since Adam. That is why all died. You really cannot argue from a situation that is beyond our comprehension against what is plainly taught.

                Scripture actually says that ALL die in Adam. It also says that it is appointed to man once to die. Thus death is the lot of all men, even those who are raptured.

                There are no grounds at all for relating Romans 6.23 to the second death. The very point behind it is that everone dies, with some however then receiving the gift of eternal life which lifts them out of death and brings them through triumphantly.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by divaD View Post
                  When you stated this, I simply asked how you explain those that are alive and remain unto the coming Of the Lord, since none of these would experience a physical death. This would also go along with my first post in this thread. The wages of sin is death...this would be in relation to the second death, since not all will physically die, apparent by some still being alive at Christ's return. So, if the wages of sin is death, and if this is referring to the first physical death, then why doesn't everyone physically die. It must then be related to the second and final death.
                  Yes, but the fact that we are living until coming of the Lord, does not mean that we have no body of death or that we do not carry the nature of sin and therefore inherited the death of Adan.


                  We are born with Concupiscence or sin, and therefore destined to physical death and eternal if Christ if Christ does not change that.

                  the physical death is related to eternal death, but that is for those who are not reclaimed in his soul for the new birth.
                  It is clear that the wages of sin is death physically and hence eternal for those who do not receive justice from God.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
                    Sorry but I have some questions going through my head, and I hope some many be able to help answer.

                    Is 'hell fire' the same fire as the 'lake of fire'?

                    The wages of sin is death.

                    Is this death, 'hell fire' (the first death) and/or the 'lake of fire'?

                    Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (the second death)

                    Will sin automatically send a person into the lake of fire, or shall some escape after the first death? (the wage of sin has been paid)

                    If the first death automatically means, a person will go into the second death (lake of fire) Then the wages of sin, would be the second death.

                    Given the above, did Jesus suffer the second death in order to redeem us?
                    I believe you quoted a portion of Revelation 20? Here is the rest of it:

                    "14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

                    It states the second death is for those whose names are not written in the book of life (unsaved).

                    Remember, there are three words translated 'hell' in the NT. Hades, Gehenna & Tartaroo. Hades is like the county jail, where all the unsaved go after dying, to await final judgment. Gehenna is the state penitentiary - final hell. So when it ways that death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, the word for hell used here is Hades. So Hades is cast into Gehenna. The second death has nothing to do with Christians.

                    Comment


                    • #11


                      Jesus made it abundantly clear that hell is a place that has no water a place where the flame is agonizing and escape is impossible. Imagine yourself standing at that gate waiting to be ushered in by a grotesque
                      being. No more chance for reprisal all alone and terrified, you can breath can't catch a full breath of the cool sweet air you were breathing just moments before, without God in the equation all goodness has gone. In your mind because you can think and remember when that crazy neighbor offered you an invitation to heaven, a chance to meet the Jesus that died in your stead. All I can say is thank God he had mercy on me and a chance to tell others that he cares.

                      Jude




                      A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

                      ~ Smith Wigglesworth

                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
                        I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
                        They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
                        Deu 32:22-24

                        Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
                        But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
                        Mat 5:21,22

                        And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
                        Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
                        Mar 9:45,46

                        And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
                        Jud 1:6

                        And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
                        And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
                        Rev 20:14,15

                        Looks like hell is a holding place of torment for those destined for the second death.
                        (God knows whose name is written in the Book of Life).

                        Dante, if he was correct, imagined deeper levels toward the inferno for those of “greater sin”. probably inspired by "lowest hell" in Deut 32:22-24.

                        IMO: The lake of fire is total destruction as even death (the first death) is swallowed up
                        and then hell itself as it will have no further purpose.

                        Richard

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
                          Is 'hell fire' the same fire as the 'lake of fire'?
                          Yes:

                          A problem with many English translations is that they translate two different Greek words, hades and gehenna as "hell."

                          If you were to find a Bible that properly distinguished these two, things would be clearer.

                          The "hell fire" is more literally rendered as "gehenna fire." Whenever Christ taught about the eternal fire, he spoke of gehenna. Christ never spoke of hades as being eternal.

                          So...

                          Christ's Terminology
                          Hades = temporary
                          Gehenna fire = the eternal fire

                          The Revelation's Terminology
                          Hades = temporary
                          The lake of fire = the eternal fire

                          Note that in the Revelation, hades is thrown into the eternal lake of fire.

                          So...

                          Gehenna fire/the lake of fire is "the second death."

                          Hades is not.
                          To This Day

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by petepet View Post
                            There are no grounds at all for relating Romans 6.23 to the second death. The very point behind it is that everone dies, with
                            some however then receiving the gift of eternal life which lifts them out of death and brings them through triumphantly.

                            But this is where you're missing the point. If the wages of sin is death, and is only related to the first death, then what is related to the second death? Wouldn't the wages of sin be the cause of the second death? How could it not be?


                            Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord


                            If the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, wouldn't there then be an opposite to that? Wouldn't the opposite be eternal death? Notice that it says the wages of sin, as in something that is paid out. Do we collect these wages everytime we sin, in which would be death, then when we and if we repent, we are no longer earning the wages of sin which is death? Surely the wages of sin is death, must be talking about the final payment, which would be the second death.

                            Feel free to show me how the wages of sin is death, is not and cannot be related to the 2nd death, because I believe it has to be, how can it not be??.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by markedward View Post
                              Yes:

                              A problem with many English translations is that they translate two different Greek words, hades and gehenna as "hell."

                              If you were to find a Bible that properly distinguished these two, things would be clearer.

                              The "hell fire" is more literally rendered as "gehenna fire." Whenever Christ taught about the eternal fire, he spoke of gehenna. Christ never spoke of hades as being eternal.

                              So...

                              Christ's Terminology
                              Hades = temporary
                              Gehenna fire = the eternal fire

                              The Revelation's Terminology
                              Hades = temporary
                              The lake of fire = the eternal fire

                              Note that in the Revelation, hades is thrown into the eternal lake of fire.

                              So...

                              Gehenna fire/the lake of fire is "the second death."

                              Hades is not.
                              That is a good distinction. I think we get hung up and confused on the use of the term "hell" which is only an English word used to represent both the temporary place of the dead and the eternal place of punishment. We use the word "hell" because we have not translated it differently.

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