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Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

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  • #61
    Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

    Originally posted by BroRog View Post
    I'm not following you. If God is the farmer and he is tilling the soil, then not only is the condition of the soil consequential, but he is fully in charge of who gets saved and who doesn't.
    We are speaking of the sower not the farmer. The sower would be the evangelist or preacher proclaiming the word of God. He sows the word of God everywhere not just in the plowed fields. Today do we witness to only those we feel are worthy? God saves some souls that seem too hard to save to us does He not? Even in the harshest fields God has an harvest. Think rcc, Judiasm, or islam very hard fields yet God saves even there. The word goes forth and accomplishes that to which God has purposed it. His word never returns to Him void.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

      Originally posted by notuptome View Post
      It most certainly is not speaking about salvation. It is speaking of election or calling. It is talking about Israel and how their unbelief has them blinded while salvation is as a result is opened to Gentiles to whom salvation was not promised.

      Your basic permise is fatally flawed so your conclusion is hopelessly incorrect. Gentiles are not immune to apostacy. God is not finished with Israel and one day they will see Christ and be saved. Zech 12:10 Currently they are receiving that for which they cried when they said crucify Him let His blood be upon us.

      Salvation is by grace through faith. Christ has done all that is necessary to save all who come unto Him. John 3:19 tells us why many do not come but the fault is not with Christ.

      For the cause of Christ
      Roger


      I guess I'm not quite following you then. I would think being part of the branches of the good olive tree would be the same as being saved. And being cut off would be the same as being lost. Let me put it another way then. Is it possible to be saved without ever being part of the good olive tree? If yes, then please explain. If no, then how can someone still be saved if they get cut off?

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

        Originally posted by divaD View Post
        Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

        Here it equates believing with being saved.

        13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.


        Here it says...which for a while believe. We were just told in the preceding verse that believing equtes to being saved.

        14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

        Even tho it doesn't say so in this verse, these obviously believed as well.

        15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

        But it also doesn't mention believing in this verse either. We know for a fact that they believed tho. I say this in order to show my previous point in relation to verse 14.

        Notice the difference between verse 14 and 15. The ones in verse 14 bring no fruit to perfection, thus they lose their salvation. The ones in verse 15 bring forth fruit with patience, thus they keep their salvation. So how is it that you can conclude "that making salvation to be fruit impairs Gods ability to save? This parable just showed that bearing fruit has quite a bit to do with things.
        You are assuming conclusions that are not supported in the text. I have known good men who were genuinely saved and due to testing they did not deal with properly they made shipwreck of their testimony. Divorcing their wives and shacking up with another woman and the like. One man with whom I was familiar was really on fire for the Lord for a while. His mother and father were long time Christians and never waivered from Christ. This man died young less than 60 years of age. I do not think for one moment he lost his salvation but I do think the Lord shortened his life because he was unrepentant. Same thing with his wife.

        To take your position we would have to deem all those who claim to know Christ but attend the rcc or most old main line demnominations to be lost. Poor soil and they cannot grow to maturity. Places where they teach false doctrines like purgatory or believe that the bible only contains the word of God not is the word of God. Legalism if you don't do or not do you fall away and are lost. Flies in the face of all sufficient grace.

        For the cause of Christ
        Roger

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

          Originally posted by divaD View Post
          I guess I'm not quite following you then. I would think being part of the branches of the good olive tree would be the same as being saved. And being cut off would be the same as being lost. Let me put it another way then. Is it possible to be saved without ever being part of the good olive tree? If yes, then please explain. If no, then how can someone still be saved if they get cut off?
          John 1:11 Jesus came to His own things and His own people rejected Him. Jesus came to Israel not to the Gentile nations. God made His promises to Abraham but also said that through Abraham all the nations would be blessed. The olive tree in Rom 11 represents the blessings promised through Abraham. This is to the Jew first but because the Jew rejected the Messiah the blessing fell to the wild olive which is us Gentiles. We are made to partake of Gods grace because the Jews rejected it. We are not to become proud because while we are greatly blessed the day will come when Israel will be graft back in and even greater blessing will flow forth. When the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. It is not about salvation but about being chosen (elect) to be made partakers in Christ through grace. The first twelve verses of Romans 11 sets the context for what follows. As a result of being saved we delight in the full blessings of the good olive tree. When the Gentiles become as apostate as the Jews were at the time of Christ then they too will not be spared. That is when Christ will return.

          For the cause of Christ
          Roger

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

            Originally posted by notuptome View Post
            You are assuming conclusions that are not supported in the text. I have known good men who were genuinely saved and due to testing they did not deal with properly they made shipwreck of their testimony. Divorcing their wives and shacking up with another woman and the like. One man with whom I was familiar was really on fire for the Lord for a while. His mother and father were long time Christians and never waivered from Christ. This man died young less than 60 years of age. I do not think for one moment he lost his salvation but I do think the Lord shortened his life because he was unrepentant. Same thing with his wife.

            To take your position we would have to deem all those who claim to know Christ but attend the rcc or most old main line demnominations to be lost. Poor soil and they cannot grow to maturity. Places where they teach false doctrines like purgatory or believe that the bible only contains the word of God not is the word of God. Legalism if you don't do or not do you fall away and are lost. Flies in the face of all sufficient grace.

            For the cause of Christ
            Roger



            I admit, you make a good point here. But how else is the parable to be understood? Look at it again.

            Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
            13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away(aphistemi).
            14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
            15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


            In verse 12 we see that that believing leads to being saved. In verse 13 we see that they believed for awhile but fell away. So what we now have to do is determine what fall away means. And since we already know that believing leads to being saved, the question is, can one fall away and still be saved?

            Away..aphistemi

            from apo - apo 575 and isthmi - histemi 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
            http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednameb...RGRK8.htm#S868

            1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from(aphistemi) the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
            2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

            Here it clearly says that some shall depart from the faith. Look at the reasons why. Do you then think these are still saved? Perhaps never saved? If the latter, then how did they depart from the faith, if they weren't at one time of the faith? This faith, it's specifically referring to Christianity, wouldn't you agree?

            But getting back to Luke 8, verse 13 could be rendered like this.

            13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation DEPART FROM THE FAITH.

            This could be a valid conclusion, since the fact that they believe for awhile, this implies they were of the faith at one time.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

              Originally posted by divaD View Post
              I admit, you make a good point here. But how else is the parable to be understood? Look at it again.

              Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
              13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away(aphistemi).
              14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
              15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


              In verse 12 we see that that believing leads to being saved. In verse 13 we see that they believed for awhile but fell away. So what we now have to do is determine what fall away means. And since we already know that believing leads to being saved, the question is, can one fall away and still be saved?
              That is the question. After one believes he/she is sealed unto the day of redemption so one cannot lose their salvation. Eph 4:30 One can fall away in the sense that they fear the reproach of men more than they love Christ. How many Christians today will not speak of Christ at work for fear of losing a promotion or even their job?
              Away..aphistemi

              from apo - apo 575 and isthmi - histemi 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
              http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednameb...RGRK8.htm#S868

              1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from(aphistemi) the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
              2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

              Here it clearly says that some shall depart from the faith. Look at the reasons why. Do you then think these are still saved? Perhaps never saved? If the latter, then how did they depart from the faith, if they weren't at one time of the faith? This faith, it's specifically referring to Christianity, wouldn't you agree?
              No these are apostates and they never received the word with joy like those in Luke. These know the truth but are not going to believe it. They love darkness rather than light. A world of difference in the heart between these.
              But getting back to Luke 8, verse 13 could be rendered like this.

              13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation DEPART FROM THE FAITH.

              This could be a valid conclusion, since the fact that they believe for awhile, this implies they were of the faith at one time.
              Where I disagree is that the ones in 1 Tim 4 never believed. One fell away due to testing the other fell away of self will or refusal to beleive. Those who are like babes in the faith can fall away if they are not cared for and fed from the word of God but they cannot be lost. These simply count the cost too extreme not knowing the exceeding reward for those who serve joyfully the Lord. They never know the joy of seeing others come to Christ but feel the pain of rejection by friends and family.

              For the cause of Christ
              Roger

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

                Originally posted by notuptome View Post
                We are speaking of the sower not the farmer. The sower would be the evangelist or preacher proclaiming the word of God. He sows the word of God everywhere not just in the plowed fields. Today do we witness to only those we feel are worthy? God saves some souls that seem too hard to save to us does He not? Even in the harshest fields God has an harvest. Think rcc, Judiasm, or islam very hard fields yet God saves even there. The word goes forth and accomplishes that to which God has purposed it. His word never returns to Him void.

                For the cause of Christ
                Roger
                I don't see the distinction you are making between the farmer and the sower in the parable of Jesus. Regardless, the point of sowing the seed is for the farmer to get a crop. If he hires a sower (preacher, evangelist) to perform the sowing, the farmer doesn't get what he wants (a crop) unless the plants produce fruit. What does the fruit represent? It represents the salvation of the soul who perseveres in belief.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

                  Originally posted by notuptome View Post
                  You are assuming conclusions that are not supported in the text. I have known good men who were genuinely saved and due to testing they did not deal with properly they made shipwreck of their testimony.
                  You did not know they were genuinely saved. No one is genuinely saved unless he perseveres under trial.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

                    Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                    I don't think Jesus meant to say that soils 2 and 3 were saved. They believed and they fell away but they weren't saved. In this parable, the fruit is salvation. Only the fourth soil leads to salvation.
                    Belief in Christ saves a person. They believed, thus they were saved until they fell away.
                    Slug1--out

                    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

                      Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                      How can it not matter if we do not know what we are to observe as believers? How do we know if we are doing his will?

                      Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

                      Firstfruits
                      The gospel was mentioned not all that other stuff.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

                        Originally posted by notuptome View Post
                        What we see here is God trimming and pruning the living branches to produce more fruit. We see God removing the dead branches who had no life in them. We do not see God removing living branches from the vine.

                        For the cause of Christ
                        Roger
                        Roger... really think about your statement here. You are wrong, the branches aren't "dead" as you are saying. They are just unfruitful.

                        For any of those branches to be on the vine, they must be "IN" Christ. So, yes... those in Christ but have since become unfruitful (does not bear fruit... not dead yet... dead is "YOUR" word so you're interpreting wrong from the get-go) are removed (He takes away), those bearing fruit are not remove but pruned for the production of more fruit.

                        So, you have to get something straight to be in alignment with scripture... they aren't dead YET. They are just unfruitful. Where have we heard that before? We can divide that right back to the parable of the Sower and one of the soil examples (# 3 I believe) of those being unfruitful.

                        So what happens?

                        You say they are already dead... as if they where put on the vine already dead. Not according to scripture. Clearly according to the doctrine you are following because you seem so sure in your explanation. Yet when I read the scriptures... they aren't dead, they are just "unfruitful" just like those in soil #3. Like I said, these scriptures divide each other for a fuller understanding.

                        So in the parable we are just given a fact... they became unfruitful. But this may lead a person to ask, so whats the big deal? Well, in dividing this with John 15... we understand the meaning of those from the soil #3 example given to us.

                        To be on the vine or In Christ, one must first be saved. If they were not saved, they would not be on the vine and would fall in the soil #1 example. Yet they are saved, or they would not be on the vine. Due to their becoming unfruitful we understand from John 15 EXACTLY what happens... HE TAKES AWAY. They get cut off and as we continue to read John 15, THEN they wither and get burned. So what does this mean? Judgement they get tossed in the fire EVEN after the fact they were once ON THE VINE. But they got removed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                        Clearly those from soil #2 and #3 didn't abide in Christ. They started out in Christ (GOT SAVED), but didn't remain. The reason was because they were unfruitful.

                        Really read this next scripture: v6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

                        This is crucial... IF... If anyone does not abide in Me... Roger, to even be able to abide, a person must first be saved. Jesus is talking about saved people and v6 is a WARNING to them to abide. That means.... once you are saved... it's not secure because of you don't abide, YOU ARE CUT OFF!

                        v7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[b] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.


                        IF... if you abide... this verse is not a warning but informing us what will happen IF, if a person abides.

                        For those who don't abide, what happens... see v6.

                        For those who do abide, what happens... see v7.

                        Both were on the vine to even have a CHANCE to abide and this is so crystal clear Roger.

                        However, the doctrine you follow doesn't allow you to see this or you do see this but have chosen to follow that doctrine and what it says is the truth instead of the truth of the Word of God as it's S-P-E-L-L-E-D out to us all.
                        Slug1--out

                        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

                          Originally posted by RollTide21 View Post
                          If soils 2-4 are all "initially saved", that completely discounts the condition of the soil. That interpretation of salvation reminds me of buying a car (I used to be in the car business).

                          4 people go in to buy a car. Person 1 wants a car, but has very little credit and what credit he does have is terrible. He leaves without a car. Person 2 has a good credit score, but very little credit. He buys the car, but the finance company doesn't approve the loan. He loses the car. Person 3 has plenty of credit, but a lot of bad credit. He buys the car, but the finance company doesn't approve the loan. He loses the car. Person 4 has plenty of really good credit. He buys the car and the finance company approves the loan. He keeps the car.

                          Salvation isn't Jesus tossing an offer out, waiting for people to buy it, and then hoping it sticks. The one who is saved is the one with the soil who receives the Gospel and bears fruit. It is the one whose Spirit is good for producing crop.

                          You are equating salvation with the seed taking hold. This is merely an interpretation and not the clear picture you paint, much less stating that those who don't agree are ignoring God and following man's doctrine. God has spread his seed all over the world and many have received it. Far fewer have had the heart to receive it in the manner that produces salvific Faith and Trust in Him.
                          Soil #2 WAS fruitful until the world made them unfruitful. Look at John 15 to understand how a person can even BEGIN to bear fruit to then become unfruitful

                          A person not IN CHRIST can't EVER produce fruit for them to then EVER become unfruitful. So they MUST first be saved, be IN Christ (on the vine) to even be once considered bearing fruit, to then fall back into the the world and thus become unfruitful.

                          Soil #3 people can't become unfruitful if they NEVER produced fruit and the ONLY way to produce fruit is to be IN CHRIST.

                          So... they had to have been IN Christ and then due to the "cares" of the world and the world's deceitfulness... they got choked and became unfruitful.

                          The fact remains... they once were fruitful. Otherwise, they'd never be able to become unfruitful.

                          If they were never fruitful in the first place, then they'd be in the soil #1 example of the parable.
                          Slug1--out

                          ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

                            Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                            You did not know they were genuinely saved. No one is genuinely saved unless he perseveres under trial.
                            Soil #2 covers about those not persevering.

                            Again, a person CAN'T even begin a trial to test their perseverance unless they are saved. I can equate your statement here as to those from soil #1 being tested. However, those in soil #1 can't be tested for they were never saved and no need for a perseverance test... they are lost because they never believed, thus were never saved, thus no need for a test/trial.

                            #2 are saved, are tested and DON'T persevere.

                            #2 can't be tested unless they are saved first.
                            Slug1--out

                            ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

                              Yes, "we are saved by hope", Romans 8:24. Which is a summation of previous chapters that we are saved by grace through faith without works because of duty.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Saved By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone

                                Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                                Belief in Christ saves a person. They believed, thus they were saved until they fell away.
                                It's not that simple. Remember what James said? The devils believe too. Belief doesn't save a person; God saves a person.

                                Comment

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