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"Predestination" in Ephesians 1

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  • #46
    Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

    Originally posted by janitor View Post
    The gentiles God is taking as a people for His name include people from every country from every age. In ways, Ephesians more than any other letter or book of the Bible shows that there is no difference in Gods eyes between Jew and gentile. No special promise, no need to argue over a geographical area in the middle east, etc.
    This is certainly true of these verses in Ephesians 2:

    11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—
    12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
    13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
    16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
    17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
    19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,
    20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
    21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
    22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

      Originally posted by shepherdsword View Post
      What is stated here is that whoever is found in him will be predestined to be holy and blameless before him in love. The action of justification is what is predestined,not any particular individual.
      I don't see that in this passage. I definitely see individual election:

      Eph 1:4-5
      4 just as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will
      NASB

      For starters, v.4 isn't saying that "just as he chose that we should be holy and blameless...". What the verse is saying is that he chose people -- he chose us (personal pronoun) IN HIM. (In other words he chose "us" to be in Him.) Verse 5 is just as compelling because it is God who adopts us. (Moreover, it logically follows what Paul just got finished saying.) We do not adopt him! Therefore, "He predestined US to adoption as sons..." And what motivated him to predestine his people to become his adopted sons and daughters was his love. And scripture clearly teaches elsewhere that God loved us before we ever loved him. He loved us first.

      Rufus

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      • #48
        Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

        Originally posted by shepherdsword View Post
        "He gave some" Is referring to Jesus himself distributing his "doma" for the building of the temple of living stones. Paul teaches them back in chapter 2 that they are a habitation of God through the Spirit. He is now elaborating and telling them how this is done. The "doma" referred to here is nothing more than scaffolding to see the completion of this. What are they here for? "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

        There isn't a single passage in the chapter that deal with a specific individual being chosen for salvation.
        Really? Did the apostles choose Christ or did Christ choose the apostles? Did Abraham choose God or did God choose Abraham? Did God choose Ishmael or Issac to be heirs of the Abrahamic promises? Likewise, did God choose Jacob or Esau to be heirs of the promise? Did the Hebrews choose God in the wilderness or did God choose the nation of Israel to bring them into a covenant relationship with him? In fact, we can go back way before Abraham to see election or predestination. We can go back to the Garden right after the Fall! Did God make his covenant with Adam and Eve or with just Eve through the Serpent (Gen 3:15)? Unconditional Election is everywhere in the bible.

        Rufus

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

          Originally posted by Bandit View Post
          Yes, I would agree that the action of justification was predestined, and not towards any individual, but to any and all who would have faith in God.
          Can you support your theory from scripture?

          Rufus

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

            (In other words he chose "us" to be in Him.)
            Umm...no, there is no "other" words. "Be" is simply not there. This in no way says he chose us to "be" in him.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

              Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
              Umm...no, there is no "other" words. "Be" is simply not there. This in no way says he chose us to "be" in him.
              I was simply making a point. It's not in any of my translations either. And my point is valid. He chose us in Him Eternity. And what God decrees in eternity is certain to come to pass in time. In TIME, all his elect come "to be" in him. In Time, his chosen ones come to believe the gospel and repent of their sins because we were predestined, by his grace, to do so in eternity.

              Rufus

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

                Originally posted by percho
                Trick question.

                Would you say, a people for his name would basically have the same meaning as not for your sake but for my name's sake?
                Of course.


                "....by revelation he made known unto me...Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge....Which in other ages was not made known....That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body..." Eph.3:3-6

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

                  Originally posted by Rufus View Post
                  I was simply making a point. It's not in any of my translations either. And my point is valid. He chose us in Him Eternity. And what God decrees in eternity is certain to come to pass in time. In TIME, all his elect come "to be" in him. In Time, his chosen ones come to believe the gospel and repent of their sins because we were predestined, by his grace, to do so in eternity.

                  Rufus
                  I thought Judas was "chosen"?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

                    Originally posted by Rufus
                    For starters, v.4 isn't saying that "just as he chose that we should be holy and blameless...".
                    True. It says He chose us in Jesus that we should be holy and blameless. Only those in Christ are adjudged holy and blameless.

                    Originally posted by Rufus
                    ......(In other words he chose "us" to be in Him.)
                    An utter distortion of the truth. God chooses people who have faith in and love Him.

                    "....Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" Ja.2:4

                    Originally posted by Rufus
                    Verse 5 is just as compelling because it is God who adopts us.
                    "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites....to whom pertaineth the adoption...." Ro.9:3-4

                    Why should Paul wish he was damned for the Israelites sake when the adoption is theirs?
                    originally posted by Rufus
                    And scripture clearly teaches elsewhere that God loved us before we ever loved him. He loved us first.
                    And who were we before coming to faith in Jesus?

                    "...how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings..." Mt.23:37

                    Doesn't Jesus know God the Father didn't choose those people?

                    "....and you are unwilling to come to Me...." Jn.5:40

                    Doesn't Jesus know these people have no will of themselves to come to God?

                    “Why was there no man when I came? When I called, why was there none to answer?" Is.50:2

                    Does God have alzheimers? Doesn't He know people can't answer when He calls unless He lets them?

                    Originally posted by Rufus
                    Really? Did the apostles choose Christ or did Christ choose the apostles?
                    The apostles chose to follow Christ.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

                      Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
                      I thought Judas was "chosen"?
                      He was; but have you not read:

                      Luke 22:21-22
                      21 "But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Me on the table. 22 "For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!"
                      NASB

                      And did not Jesus say elsewhere?

                      Mark 14:21
                      21 "For the Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
                      NASB

                      So, in eternity the Father decreed that Judas be born into this world (even though it would have been Good if he had never been born) and betray his Son on the one hand; yet, on the other Jesus pronounces a "woe" (condemnation)upon Judas, who he chose to follow him and for doing the very thing the Father decreed. But you should not marvel at this. Judas wasn't alone; for it's also written:

                      Acts 4:27-28
                      27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur.
                      NASB

                      Yet, did not Jesus also tell Pilate:

                      John 19:11-12
                      11 Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin."
                      NASB

                      Everyone is guilty for doing the very things the Father predestined them to do in eternity.

                      What sayest thou to such profound and perplexing truth -- to the Tension Extraordinaire between the Sovereign Decrees of God and Man's Moral Responsibility?

                      Meanwhile, back to my original point: Jesus did choose the 12. They did not choose him. Everyone is chosen -- many unto salvation, most unto reprobation. God loved and chose Jacob to be an heir of the promise, whereas he "hated" Esau and excluded him from being an heir covenant promises before the twins did anything good or bad. Likewise, God raised up Pharaoh to be a reprobate for the sole purpose of glorifying Him, etc.

                      Rufus

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

                        Originally posted by Rufus View Post
                        ...Meanwhile, back to my original point: Jesus did choose the 12. They did not choose him. Everyone is chosen -- many unto salvation, most unto reprobation. God loved and chose Jacob to be an heir of the promise, whereas he "hated" Esau and excluded him from being an heir covenant promises before the twins did anything good or bad. Likewise, God raised up Pharaoh to be a reprobate for the sole purpose of glorifying Him, etc.

                        Rufus
                        And was King Saul chosen?

                        edit to say: I just want to clarify why I'm asking about these "chosen" people. It is clear that sometimes a "chosen" person is not saved.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

                          Yikes(15 characters)

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

                            Originally posted by Rufus View Post
                            I was simply making a point. It's not in any of my translations either. And my point is valid. He chose us in Him Eternity. And what God decrees in eternity is certain to come to pass in time. In TIME, all his elect come "to be" in him. In Time, his chosen ones come to believe the gospel and repent of their sins because we were predestined, by his grace, to do so in eternity.

                            Rufus
                            The "Us" that Paul is referring to is the Jews. Verses 3-12 are a Hebraism. It is a praise for what God has done for Israel. Paul is praising God for what He has done for the Jews, he draws a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles. Notice verses 12 and 13, we who first trusted in Christ and then he says, and you also, after you believed. In chapter 2 he will show how the Gentiles have been brought into the promises through faith in Christ.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

                              Guys, all this confusion about choosing and who does it. God can choose someone for the purpose of service, vocation, or any other purpose. He chose King Saul for a purpose. He chose Judas for a purpose. He chose Paul for a purpose. None of this choosing has to do with salvation.

                              God can also choose individuals for eternal life. How does God do that and still allow us to choose? Because God knows whatís in a manís heart, He knows that when presented with the Gospel whether that man will choose Jesus or not. The man whose heart is ready to receive Jesus is the man the Father gives to the Son. Itís that simple. None of this requires an interpretation that God chose individuals for eternal life before the foundation of the world.

                              God also chose the nation of Israel BEFORE they were ever conceived. This does not mean that God chose who and who would not be a citizen of Israel. God also chose the Body of Christ, the Church, before they were ever conceived (i.e. before the foundation of the world). This does not mean that God chose who and who would not be a member of the Body of Christ, the Church.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: "Predestination" in Ephesians 1

                                Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                                The "Us" that Paul is referring to is the Jews. Verses 3-12 are a Hebraism. It is a praise for what God has done for Israel. Paul is praising God for what He has done for the Jews, he draws a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles. Notice verses 12 and 13, we who first trusted in Christ and then he says, and you also, after you believed. In chapter 2 he will show how the Gentiles have been brought into the promises through faith in Christ.
                                I was wonder what took you so long to get here. Were you stuck in traffic? By the way, I can't see how to make sense of your theory grammatically.

                                Paul initially establishes the antecedant to the pronouns at the beginning of the letter. The "us" refers to Paul and the Ephesians.

                                Comment

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