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  • Implications of a Created Messiah

    All my life, I have been raised in a Pentecostal family. My parents were saved during the revival in Holland in the '60's and led my dad's brother to the Lord as well. I have always known my uncle as a Pentecostal believer like my dad.

    Until recent years. Lately, I have begun to hear sounds about Jesus not being God, about Jesus being the first creation of God - a perfect one at that. I heard those sounds from my uncle, but also my two cousins, with whom I am quite close. Since they are 24 and 28, they're a bit too old to just be echoing their parents, especially knowing the critical and analytical Dutchies they are.

    Now debunking abstract theories is easy. We can all say Jehovah's witnesses are wrong. The point is, we're talking about family here, mainstream Pentecostals who believe in everything from miracles and wonders to speaking in tongues and the gifts of the Spirit. Everything, that is, except the Trinity. So like I said, debunking abstract theories is easy. But what if it comes closer? Are the lines still as black and white?

    Hence the reason for this thread. I should split my question up into two parts, though I fear nobody will be able to truly answer the second. First of all, what are the repercussions for the Christian faith in general when one chooses to believe that Christ is perfect, but not God? What are the consequences for our Christianity when we believe everything about Christ - except His Deity? And secondly, will those in the position such as my cousins and my uncle be truly denied by God? They are not like my and their aunts, who are involved in occultism, tarot cards, meditation, and a host of other New Age activities. Still, they miss a crucial aspect of Christianity: the Deity of Christ.

    What are first the general and also the personal repercussions?
    Who have I in heaven but You oh God? Besides You, I desire nothing here on earth. My heart and my flesh may fail me, but God will be the strength of my heart and my portion forever...as for me, the nearness of God is my good - Psalm 73:25-26, 28a

    Check out my new blog at pilgrimtozion.blogspot.com

  • #2
    If we are not grounded in who Christ is or we try to Change who Christ is, then we do not have the real Christ, nor God. If we are denying that Christ is one with the father ( God in human Flesh) Then we are calling him a liar and calling the God a liar also.
    I think the book of 2 John does a good job explaining this, especially emphasising verse 9
    KJV"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."


    NASB: Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

    I would also point out that in Matthew 16 vs 13 th 17 everybody had an idea or opinion of who Christ was but only Peter got it right. If it was not so Important why did Christ stop and ask Peter about it??
    This is about the best answer I can give to your second question.
    ὁ ̓Ιησοῦς κύριος

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    • #3
      This really doesn't answer your question but it's on-topic at least. I've heard people with that view and it makes me sad to hear. The two questions I've never heard an answer for from someone with that unfortunate view are these.
      How do they explain the beginning of the gosple of John? That pretty much lays it all out, in my mind at least. I don't even see how it could be read any other way than saying Jesus is God, and he's always been there.

      Secondly is Genesis 18. Abraham meets God. The chapter then alternates back and forth from refering to God and to three men. Sarah even brings three meals. It didn't seem to confuse them.

      I dunno, it's clear in my mind anyway. Sorry, that probably didn't help you but who knows. God Bless.

      Pat

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      • #4
        Does the fact that Jesus was created by the Father make Jesus not God? We are told plainly that Jesus is the first creation of the Father (Rev 3:14) and yet Jesus did not find it robbery to be equal with God (Phl 2:6).

        We have to stop thinking of the word God being a personal name for the Father. No one knows the name of the Father, God is not His name, it is more of a title and Jesus is God as He is the visible image of the invisible Father.

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        • #5
          Why would one want to say they believe in Jesus Christ but not believe in the deity of Christ? I'm confused. That sounds more to me like a Jehovah witness. Maybe i'm old fashioned...(back to Genesis old fashioned), but I am not getting what this world is coming too!
          .................The message of the cross divides the human race." ~MW~

          ........ ... " LORD, I beseech thee, let now thine ear be attentive to the prayer of thy servant..."
          .................................................. .................................................. ...Nehemiah 1:11a



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          • #6
            Just to clarify: I do not wish to discuss the Deity of Christ. I wish to discuss the implications as described in my OP. If anybody can answer those two questions, that would be great!

            Benjamin
            Who have I in heaven but You oh God? Besides You, I desire nothing here on earth. My heart and my flesh may fail me, but God will be the strength of my heart and my portion forever...as for me, the nearness of God is my good - Psalm 73:25-26, 28a

            Check out my new blog at pilgrimtozion.blogspot.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Anyone that does not understand the relationship between the Father and Jesus will fail to realize just about all other truth and will find themselves in the lake of fire.

              Comment


              • #8
                Simply put, they believe the heresy of Arianism. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism Honestly, I think that the whole of Christianity rests on Christ being exactly who He said He was. As C.S. Lewis says in Mere Christianity "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us." Christ was either a liar, lunatic, or the Lord.

                If Jesus is not the Son of God, not God incarnate, then Christianity ceases to be. I just don't see how a person could say they are a Christian yet reject clear Biblical teaching that Christ is God. If He isn't God, we all should be Jewish, waiting for our Messiah.

                Is this a new thing for them? Are they attending a new church, associating with new people? The best thing you can do is strengthen yourself to help them see the error of their beliefs and pray, pray, pray for them.

                To answer your second question, this may sound harsh, but I do think that their salvation is in question. They have actively rejected the second Person of the Trinity, in effect, they have rejected God and His teachings. I'm sorry that sounds so tough, I say it with love and concern for them (I have JWs in my family and I worry about them, too). But, remember that nothing is impossible with God, and that He loves us and created us to know, love, and serve Him and to spend all eternity with Him. God is still knocking at their door; it's just a matter of them letting Him in.

                Good luck, this must be so difficult for you!
                Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Luke 1:38

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                • #9
                  Aurora,

                  Thanks for your reply. The thing is, they do not see Jesus as 'merely human'. They see Jesus as the Son of God, as part of the royal family of God and thus the Son of the King of Kings, God Himself. They realize this produces questions, but they are willing to live with those questions rather than the ones that the Trinity leaves them.

                  The point is that this is all on a highly theoretical level. When the rubber meets the road, they believe that Christ died and rose again for our sins. They believe He is their perfect Lamb of God and only source of salvation. But they say he is the Son of God, not God Himself.

                  Does that clarify?

                  Benjamin
                  Who have I in heaven but You oh God? Besides You, I desire nothing here on earth. My heart and my flesh may fail me, but God will be the strength of my heart and my portion forever...as for me, the nearness of God is my good - Psalm 73:25-26, 28a

                  Check out my new blog at pilgrimtozion.blogspot.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pilgrimtozion View Post
                    Hence the reason for this thread. I should split my question up into two parts, though I fear nobody will be able to truly answer the second. First of all, what are the repercussions for the Christian faith in general when one chooses to believe that Christ is perfect, but not God? What are the consequences for our Christianity when we believe everything about Christ - except His Deity?
                    The deity of Christ is inseparable from Biblical Christianity. If one "chooses" to permanently reject the absolute deity of Christ then they are neither saved nor Christians. Is it possible for a perfect created man who isn't God to atone for the sins of all men? I don't know, but Jesus clearly stated that He was God and if He wasn't, then that makes Him a liar and where does that leave "our Christianity"?

                    And secondly, will those in the position such as my cousins and my uncle be truly denied by God? They are not like my and their aunts, who are involved in occultism, tarot cards, meditation, and a host of other New Age activities. Still, they miss a crucial aspect of Christianity: the Deity of Christ.

                    What are first the general and also the personal repercussions?
                    1 John 2:22-23, 4:2-3: Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also....By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

                    Cheers
                    Leigh

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rmt0005 View Post
                      Does the fact that Jesus was created by the Father make Jesus not God? We are told plainly that Jesus is the first creation of the Father (Rev 3:14) and yet Jesus did not find it robbery to be equal with God (Phl 2:6).
                      That term in Rev 3:14 (the beginning of the creation of God) does not imply that Jesus was a created being, but rather that He is the source or originator of all creation as John very clearly outlines in his Gospel account. Paul corrected this heresy in his letter to the Colossians which also seems to have infected the sister Church at Laodicea (see Col 4:16). As a man, yes He had a beginning in one sense, but Jesus was and always will be God. He cannot be both God and created, He is either one or the other.

                      Cheers
                      Leigh

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TEITZY View Post
                        The deity of Christ is inseparable from Biblical Christianity. If one "chooses" to permanently reject the absolute deity of Christ then they are neither saved nor Christians. Is it possible for a perfect created man who isn't God to atone for the sins of all men? I don't know, but Jesus clearly stated that He was God and if He wasn't, then that makes Him a liar and where does that leave "our Christianity"?

                        1 John 2:22-23, 4:2-3: Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also....By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

                        Cheers
                        Leigh
                        The thing is...they don't deny that Jesus is the Christ.
                        Who have I in heaven but You oh God? Besides You, I desire nothing here on earth. My heart and my flesh may fail me, but God will be the strength of my heart and my portion forever...as for me, the nearness of God is my good - Psalm 73:25-26, 28a

                        Check out my new blog at pilgrimtozion.blogspot.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pilgrimtozion View Post
                          The thing is...they don't deny that Jesus is the Christ.
                          Yes but the OT clearly states that the Messiah was also God (Ps 45:6-7, 110:1; Isa 9:6) and that is what John means when he says they deny that "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh".

                          Cheers
                          Leigh

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pilgrimtozion View Post
                            Aurora,

                            Thanks for your reply. The thing is, they do not see Jesus as 'merely human'. They see Jesus as the Son of God, as part of the royal family of God and thus the Son of the King of Kings, God Himself. They realize this produces questions, but they are willing to live with those questions rather than the ones that the Trinity leaves them.

                            The point is that this is all on a highly theoretical level. When the rubber meets the road, they believe that Christ died and rose again for our sins. They believe He is their perfect Lamb of God and only source of salvation. But they say he is the Son of God, not God Himself.

                            Does that clarify?

                            Benjamin
                            It sounds like they are really trying to have it both ways. They view Jesus as God's Son, the Lamb of God, but not God himself? Isn't that the whole point? Maybe this is an oversimplification, but I just don't see how anyone other than God makes the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. I think that if they deny His divinity, it really makes everything else moot.

                            Where was Jesus before He was born? Don't the Jehovah's Witnesses believe something similar? Here's something from their official site http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_06.htm Does this sound like what they are saying?

                            Do they believe in the Holy Spirit? They don't believe in the Trinity?

                            I'm not really sure why they would toss out presumably deeply held beliefs for something that raises so many questions. Yes, it's impossible for humans to truly understand the mystery of the Trinity or the idea that God would come and live among us, as one of us, but if that's been Christian teaching for 2000 years, I don't know why anyone would toss it out.
                            Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Luke 1:38

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by aurora77 View Post
                              It sounds like they are really trying to have it both ways. They view Jesus as God's Son, the Lamb of God, but not God himself? Isn't that the whole point? Maybe this is an oversimplification, but I just don't see how anyone other than God makes the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. I think that if they deny His divinity, it really makes everything else moot.

                              Where was Jesus before He was born? Don't the Jehovah's Witnesses believe something similar? Here's something from their official site http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_06.htm Does this sound like what they are saying?

                              Do they believe in the Holy Spirit? They don't believe in the Trinity?

                              I'm not really sure why they would toss out presumably deeply held beliefs for something that raises so many questions. Yes, it's impossible for humans to truly understand the mystery of the Trinity or the idea that God would come and live among us, as one of us, but if that's been Christian teaching for 2000 years, I don't know why anyone would toss it out.
                              To be honest, I don't know why they would want to throw it out either. They say it raises less questions for them than the Trinity does (no, they don't believe the Holy Spirit is a separate person), but I say it raises more questions. It does feel quite like what the JW believe, which is why I placed this thread in World Religions.

                              I also have to admit I am somewhat disappointed at the lack of input on this thread. I had hoped that more people would have answered the questions posted in the OP. But thanks heaps for your answer, aurora!

                              Benjamin
                              Who have I in heaven but You oh God? Besides You, I desire nothing here on earth. My heart and my flesh may fail me, but God will be the strength of my heart and my portion forever...as for me, the nearness of God is my good - Psalm 73:25-26, 28a

                              Check out my new blog at pilgrimtozion.blogspot.com

                              Comment

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