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Paul's Thorn

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  • VerticalReality
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by RollTide21 View Post
    What do you mean, here? Paul's "ability and knowledge" was appropriated to Him by God. If God saw fit for Paul to suffer some sort of ailment so as to keep him humble, then Paul had no say in the matter.
    I'm not saying it's a definite as the passage doesn't really affirm one way or the other, but I would suggest that the thorn may have not been given to Paul because he would have been conceited otherwise as much as it was for the purposes of preventing other people from exalting Paul into being more than a mere man. I would refer to Peter healing the man at the gate called Beautiful as an example. Peter was quick to cast off any praise for himself as the source of the crippled man's healing. He was quick to give all the glory to God. Could it be that such demonstrations of supernatural power have a tendency to cause people to exalt the person being used as opposed to our Lord who has supplied the power?

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  • Desperaux
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by RollTide21 View Post
    What do you mean, here? Paul's "ability and knowledge" was appropriated to Him by God. If God saw fit for Paul to suffer some sort of ailment so as to keep him humble, then Paul had no say in the matter.
    We already have God's promise of healing in our spirits when we receive Him. Paul did, too. He knew how to appropriate it from his spirit to his mind to his body. That is something many countless Christians need to learn to do.

    That is why what Paul said that he suffered was not an illness or malady of any kind. God doesn;t ever cause anyone to be sick, least of all to make someone humble! That would make God a schizophrenic, as His will is that all be well. To say that God brought illness to bear upon Paul is just an excuse to believe the lie that it is God's will that we be sick.

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  • RollTide21
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by Desperaux View Post
    It wasn't a sickness, or malady of any kind, for he, as our example, had the knowledge and ability to appropriate his own healing.
    What do you mean, here? Paul's "ability and knowledge" was appropriated to Him by God. If God saw fit for Paul to suffer some sort of ailment so as to keep him humble, then Paul had no say in the matter.

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  • shepherdsword
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
    When I think about the process of sifting wheat, I don't think of merely a test. I think of getting rid of the bad to get to the good. Have you ever looked into the process of how they used to sift wheat back in that time? It's pretty interesting, and it adds a whole other dimension to Jesus' statement.
    the chaff is the womb of the wheat

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  • VerticalReality
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by nzyr View Post
    No he doesn't explain what it was. But the term 'thorn' seems to suggest it was something painful.
    Okay. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

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  • Desperaux
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
    The length of the letter is irrelevant. Paul said, see with what large "Letters" I write to you. Letters plural, it's clear he is speaking of writing in large letters. I can't speak for you, but, I think the rest of the world probably finds this Paul easier to see that this Paul.
    Paul, to emphasize what he was saying, deliberately said he was writing with his own hand, and also with large letters. Two points of emphasis, which was the reason, and nothing else.

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  • Desperaux
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    In answer to the OP, the thorn that Paul suffered was persecution for the sake of his great revelation. It wasn't a sickness, or malady of any kind, for he, as our example, had the knowledge and ability to appropriate his own healing.

    The only trouble that God promises us and doesn't promise deliverance from is persecution, for which He gives the ability to endure.

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  • nzyr
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
    Yes, he does. He goes into quite a bit of detail at the end of 2 Corinthians 11 through 2 Corinthians 12:10.
    No he doesn't explain what it was. But the term 'thorn' seems to suggest it was something painful.

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  • VerticalReality
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
    Sifting them is simply testing them. He wnats to sift them to see if he can get them to turn from Christ. He sifted Peter and we see what happened yet Peter was restored.
    When I think about the process of sifting wheat, I don't think of merely a test. I think of getting rid of the bad to get to the good. Have you ever looked into the process of how they used to sift wheat back in that time? It's pretty interesting, and it adds a whole other dimension to Jesus' statement.

    Leave a comment:


  • Butch5
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
    That would seem to be the logical conclusion. However, why would Satan also desire to sift the disciples as wheat? Sifting wheat is not a bad thing either, so why would the devil ask to do it?

    Sifting them is simply testing them. He wnats to sift them to see if he can get them to turn from Christ. He sifted Peter and we see what happened yet Peter was restored.

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  • Slug1
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
    That would seem to be the logical conclusion. However, why would Satan also desire to sift the disciples as wheat? Sifting wheat is not a bad thing either, so why would the devil ask to do it?
    Ha... I was gonna bring this up next. Peter is SUCH a good example of being a punching bag for satan until Jesus was to step back in and pick him back up. Through all this... teach us a lesson.

    We as the church also have the authorization to turn a person over to satan. All for the purpose of "helping" that person.

    God surely uses satan for this purpose and Paul new it the most probably since he not only had a messenger from satan but he also executed the turning of people over to satan.

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  • VerticalReality
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
    Yes, it does. However, Paul said that he was given the thorn to keep him from exalting himself beyond what he should.

    2 Corinthians 12:1-7(KJV)
    1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
    6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
    7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

    The thorn is so that Paul is not exalted above measure. it would be in Satan's interest for Paul to be exalted, that would take way from the glory of God. However, Paul seems to indicate that this thorn came from God in order to keep him from becoming proud based on the visions and revelations that he was given. The purpose of the thorn was to keep Paul's ego in check. Keeping Paul's ego in check is beneficial to God not to Satan. It would be in Satan's best interest if Paul did exhalt Himself which would be sin against God and it would hinder the Gospel. Paul's thorn actually worked to the good for the gospel. I don't think Satan would be interested in working for the good of the Gospel.
    That would seem to be the logical conclusion. However, why would Satan also desire to sift the disciples as wheat? Sifting wheat is not a bad thing either, so why would the devil ask to do it?

    Leave a comment:


  • Slug1
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
    Paul's thorn actually worked to the good for the gospel. I don't think Satan would be interested in working for the good of the Gospel.
    Butch I will have to disagree with you on this statement. satan has been used by God to further the Word of God since the beginning. The entire Book of Job is all about allowing satan to be a "messenger" that brings infliction upon a man so God can utilize the work that satan does to glorify Himself and teach Job and all of us to read that book, a lesson.

    God utilizes satan because satan is a creation and to say...

    I don't think Satan would be interested in working for the good of the Gospel.
    Well, even though this may be true... I don't think satan has any choice in the matter.

    Soon, satan is gonna be given the green light and he'll be doing NOTHING but working for the GOOD OF THE GOSPEL and seven years later, his use will be done with for almost 1000 years and then after the last task... then he's out of a purpose and will be punished for his pride.

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  • shepherdsword
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    I once thought it was eyesight as well. Due to the very scriptures Butch posted.However,looking at the context it does appear like it was the messenger of Satan. Whatever it was it was irritating enough for him to seek God three times on it.Then again God's answer "My strength is perfected in weakness" could be used to define the thorn as something relating to a weakness of Paul,like eyesight perhaps.

    Man,I am sure rock solid in my position on this issue,aren't I...

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  • Butch5
    replied
    Re: Paul's Thorn

    Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
    The passage says it is a messenger of Satan.
    Yes, it does. However, Paul said that he was given the thorn to keep him from exalting himself beyond what he should.

    2 Corinthians 12:1-7(KJV)
    1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
    6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
    7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

    The thorn is so that Paul is not exalted above measure. it would be in Satan's interest for Paul to be exalted, that would take way from the glory of God. However, Paul seems to indicate that this thorn came from God in order to keep him from becoming proud based on the visions and revelations that he was given. The purpose of the thorn was to keep Paul's ego in check. Keeping Paul's ego in check is beneficial to God not to Satan. It would be in Satan's best interest if Paul did exhalt Himself which would be sin against God and it would hinder the Gospel. Paul's thorn actually worked to the good for the gospel. I don't think Satan would be interested in working for the good of the Gospel.

    Leave a comment:

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