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The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

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  • Fenris
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that the msg wouldn't be what's important. But at the same time, if the Bible tells us there was a man in the land of Uz, and his name was Job, why shouldn't we take that as historically factual?
    Shrug. I'm not wedded to the point one way or the other. I'm saying the book is relevant either way.

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  • Fenris
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by rejoice44 View Post
    But if its fiction then he really doesn't work behind the scenes
    How does that follow?




    You evidently don't believe a great fish swallowed Jonah.
    I have zeal but not knowledge, apparently.

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  • divaD
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by Fenris View Post
    And it's lessons are therefore irrelevant?

    Plenty of religious Jews believe that the Book of Job is a parable. In other words, it's fiction. So what?

    .

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that the msg wouldn't be what's important. But at the same time, if the Bible tells us there was a man in the land of Uz, and his name was Job, why shouldn't we take that as historically factual?

    What about passages like this?

    Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

    If Job is to be understood as a fictional character, then so should Noah and Daniel, since these 3 were listed together. Notice also that that passage states...these three men..not these two men and a fictional character. IMO, Ezekiel 14:14 easily proves that the book of Job should be understood as historically factual.

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  • rejoice44
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by Fenris View Post
    That God operates behind the scenes, whether we know it or not.
    But if its fiction then he really doesn't work behind the scenes, it just become a figment of one's imagination.


    Who is, apparently, the least heroic character in the book.
    It's amazing Jews included it in the biblical canon at all
    You evidently don't believe a great fish swallowed Jonah.

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  • rejoice44
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by Knight Templar View Post
    I don't recall God ever holding a press conference and telling us "Hey guys, the book of Esther describes an actual historic event, I know because I was there, trust Me".

    I'm not saying I personally don't think it's historical. I'm just saying it's not really important if it is or if it's not. Esther is not even a religious book. The word "God" isn't even mentioned in it.
    I happen to believe that God has preserved his word. The fact that it is part of the Jewish cannon of the Bible is reason enough for me to believe God has given it to us as his word. If you can throw Esther out and Genesis out, then you can throw anything out, and then what do you have? You have a Bible of fiction, and a God of fiction.

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  • Nihil Obstat
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by Knight Templar View Post
    I didn't read anything of substance here.

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  • Fenris
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Well if the book is fiction, and God didn't really help the Jews, what lesson is learned?
    That God operates behind the scenes, whether we know it or not.


    But the book and its title is still about a Jew.
    Who is, apparently, the least heroic character in the book.
    Another reason they don't accept the book of Job is that it parallels Israel. They have a zeal for God but without knowledge. That is a quote from Paul. They do not understand the book, for its about God's mercy, and not man's righteousness.
    It's amazing Jews included it in the biblical canon at all

    Leave a comment:


  • Free Indeed
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Well if the book is fiction, and God didn't really help the Jews, what lesson is learned?
    Where exactly in the Book of Esther does it say that God helped the Jews?

    Leave a comment:


  • rejoice44
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by Fenris View Post
    The same as if it's a true story...
    Well if the book is fiction, and God didn't really help the Jews, what lesson is learned?

    Tsk tsk, ascribing racism. There are plenty of non-Jewish heroes in the bible. Read the book of Jonah, for example. All it's heroes are non-Jews.
    But the book and its title is still about a Jew. Another reason they don't accept the book of Job is that it parallels Israel. They have a zeal for God but without knowledge. That is a quote from Paul. They do not understand the book, for its about God's mercy, and not man's righteousness.



    :

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  • Fenris
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by rejoice44 View Post
    If its fiction what is the lesson?
    The same as if it's a true story...

    The Jews cannot perceive of God devoting a book of their Bible to an Edomite.
    Tsk tsk, ascribing racism. There are plenty of non-Jewish heroes in the bible. Read the book of Jonah, for example. All it's heroes are non-Jews.



    Love you Fenris.
    right back at ya!

    Leave a comment:


  • rejoice44
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    [QUOTE]
    Originally posted by Fenris View Post
    And it's lessons are therefore irrelevant?
    If its fiction what is the lesson?

    Plenty of religious Jews believe that the Book of Job is a parable. In other words, it's fiction. So what?
    The Jews cannot perceive of God devoting a book of their Bible to an Edomite.

    yeah yeah yeah....
    Love you Fenris.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rullion Green
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by Knight Templar View Post

    I'm not saying I personally don't think it's historical. I'm just saying it's not really important if it is or if it's not. Esther is not even a religious book. The word "God" isn't even mentioned in it.
    Sounds reasonable, it does read like a historical document though, with the historical references and such. But...point taken.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fenris
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by rejoice44 View Post
    1) If its fiction God isn't working behind the scenes. The book would merely be someone's imagination.
    And it's lessons are therefore irrelevant?

    Plenty of religious Jews believe that the Book of Job is a parable. In other words, it's fiction. So what?

    2) It would seem to me that Israel is back in Israel. There is no post-temple world for the Jews, the Messiah is the temple. Just because Israel rejects the temple does not alter the fact that it exists.
    yeah yeah yeah....

    Leave a comment:


  • Free Indeed
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by rejoice44 View Post
    You are sitting on the fence with one foot on each side. Either the stories are true, or they are fiction. Either God is true, or God is fiction.
    I don't recall God ever holding a press conference and telling us "Hey guys, the book of Esther describes an actual historic event, I know because I was there, trust Me".

    I'm not saying I personally don't think it's historical. I'm just saying it's not really important if it is or if it's not. Esther is not even a religious book. The word "God" isn't even mentioned in it.

    Leave a comment:


  • rejoice44
    replied
    Re: The book of Esther. Based on historical fact or fiction?

    Originally posted by Fenris View Post
    I'm actually with KT on this. The message of the book is more important than it's historical accuracy. The Book of Esther is about 1)God working behind the scenes, even when He appears hidden; and 2)How Jews can survive in a post-land of Israel and post-temple world.

    Having said that, I do believe that the book is a historical document.
    1) If its fiction God isn't working behind the scenes. The book would merely be someone's imagination.

    2) It would seem to me that Israel is back in Israel. There is no post-temple world for the Jews, the Messiah is the temple. Just because Israel rejects the temple does not alter the fact that it exists.

    Leave a comment:

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