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A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

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  • A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?


    The Father of Jesus of Nazareth was the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:26-35).

    I don't see this as meaning that Jesus was "fully God".


    ďAdam, who is a type of Him (Jesus) who was to comeĒ (Romans 5:14).

    Pre-fall Adam
    and Jesus of Nazareth ... were BOTH sinless men.


    God's PLAN # 1
    (full of compassion and grace) ...
    Produce a perfect sinless human who would stand in as our Substitute,

    and be the perfect Sacrificial Lamb, and die for the sins of the human race!

    I'm assuming you understand why man could NOT accomplish this for himself.

    I believe continuing God's ancient blood covenant also played a part in this
    .


    God's PLAN #2
    ...
    Have this human (man) actually be God ... a "fully God" man.

    WHY did God choose to do the second plan? ... Was it necessary?


    God produced His sinless man, which was sufficient to provide for manís salvation.

    Originally, before his fall, the man Adam was without any sin.

    ďAdam, who is a type of Him (Jesus) who was to comeĒ (Romans 5:14) ... BOTH SINLESS
    -- Adamís fall resulted in sin, and death, and the condemnation of all men.
    -- Jesus Christís righteous act was a free gift, which resulted in the justification of life for many.

    Jesus corrected the grievous error of the first sinless human.

    Romans 5:

    12 Therefore, just as
    through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
    and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned ó

    13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned

    according to the likeness of the transgression of
    Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
    15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the
    one manís offense many died,
    much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of
    the one Man, Jesus Christ,
    abounded to many.

    16 And the gift is not like that which came through
    the one who sinned.
    For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation,

    but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

    17 For if by the
    one manís offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive
    abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in
    life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore, as through
    one manís offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,
    even so through
    one Manís righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
    19 For as by
    one manís disobedience many were made sinners,
    so also by
    one Manís obedience many will be made righteous.
    20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.

    But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

    21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign

    through righteousness to
    eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
    .

  • #2
    Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

    Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. kjv

    Don't ever remember reading about "fully God" in the Bible but above is what the Bible says regarding why He partook of flesh and blood. Confirms to me that a good parent would only ask their child to do things that they themselves would also do.

    Hope this helps.

    Bless you,
    Love Fountain

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

      Originally posted by Love Fountain View Post
      Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;
      that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
      Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. kjv

      Don't ever remember reading about "fully God" in the Bible but above is what the Bible says regarding why He partook of
      flesh and blood. Confirms to me that a good parent would only ask their child to do things that they themselves would also do.
      I'm not sure who the "he" stands for ... most probably the second Person of the Trinity.
      Because I'm unsure if the sinless man Jesus would have the power to defeat Satan.
      And this was one of the reasons for the manifestation of the super-man Jesus.

      However, the thread is about WHY God Himself decided (or needed?) to become the human Jesus.
      Because I see the perfect sinless man Jesus as being enough to die for our sins.

      For 1700 years since Nicea, I believe all of traditional Christianity has believed that
      Jesus was "fully God" and "fully man".

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

        How can a man be sinless? Only God is without sin.

        For the cause of Christ
        Roger

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

          Read Hebrews. Yeshua is fully God.

          Or...for a condensed view, simply read John chapter 1.

          Fully God.
          Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

            Originally posted by John Zain View Post
            I'm not sure who the "he" stands for ... most probably the second Person of the Trinity.
            Because I'm unsure if the sinless man Jesus would have the power to defeat Satan.
            And this was one of the reasons for the manifestation of the super-man Jesus.

            However, the thread is about WHY God Himself decided (or needed?) to become the human Jesus.
            Because I see the perfect sinless man Jesus as being enough to die for our sins.

            For 1700 years since Nicea, I believe all of traditional Christianity has believed that
            Jesus was "fully God" and "fully man".

            Dear John,


            I thought Heb 2:14-15 answered what the thread was about in referrence to God coming as a man. Not only was it for our sins but also to defeat death or in other words to defeat satan. I never hear anyone really refer to Heb 2:14-15 and think it's very important to understand.


            Not trying to change your thread but please help me to understand better what you mean by the following because I've never seen these titles in the Bible and I'm really not sure what you mean by all the different types of Jesus:

            1) "the second Person of the Trinity"
            2) "the sinless man Jesus"
            3) "the super-man Jesus"
            4) "the human Jesus"
            5) "the perfect sinless man Jesus"
            6) "Jesus was "fully God" and "fully man"


            Thank you for your help!
            Love Fountain

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

              The only way a sinless man could ever be, was if God himself was born of flesh. Adam was the first man and he sinned and died, and all his offspring die no matter how good they are. Death has a grip on everyone who is born of the seed of man. Jesus is of Gods own seed, and death has no right to hold him as he was sinless.If your in Christ then death will lose its sting and release its hold. He holds the keys and your in his hands...God rules and we have a blessed hope regarding our departed loved ones.
              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

                Originally posted by Love Fountain View Post
                I thought Heb 2:14-15 answered what the thread was about in referrence to God coming as a man.
                Not only was it for our sins but also to defeat death or in other words to defeat satan.
                Sorry, you're missing the point of the thread.

                God's PLAN # 1 (full of compassion and grace) ...
                Produce a perfect sinless human who would stand in as our Substitute,
                and be the perfect Sacrificial Lamb, and die for the sins of the human race!


                I said PLAN #1 is all that should have been required.

                And I said PLAN #1 did not make Jesus "fully God".

                Because of the Council of Nicea, traditional Christianity has taught for 1700 years:
                -- Jesus was "fully God" and "fully man"
                -- the second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, came and indwelt the human Jesus, making Him "fully God".

                Since PLAN #1 was enough, WHY did Jesus also need to be "fully God"?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

                  Originally posted by John Zain View Post
                  I'm not sure who the "he" stands for ... most probably the second Person of the Trinity.
                  Because I'm unsure if the sinless man Jesus would have the power to defeat Satan.
                  And this was one of the reasons for the manifestation of the super-man Jesus.

                  However, the thread is about WHY God Himself decided (or needed?) to become the human Jesus.
                  Because I see the perfect sinless man Jesus as being enough to die for our sins.

                  For 1700 years since Nicea, I believe all of traditional Christianity has believed that
                  Jesus was "fully God" and "fully man".
                  I truly hope you get this straightened out in your mind and heart before you die. For as it is written:

                  John 8:24
                  24 "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM [he], you shall die in your sins."

                  Most translations add the personal pronoun "he" after the "am". However, the pronoun is not in any of the original manuscripts. The name "I AM" was the name YHWH in the OT gave to Moses when the prophet asked YHWH, "who shall I say sent me"? "I AM" is the Eternal One -- the self-existent one. Jesus often claimed to be the Eternal One in the gospels.

                  The Trinunity of God is taught everywhere in the bible. Again, I hope you take the above text to heart and get this all-important issue sorted out before you die.

                  Rufus

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

                    Why? Because He loves us that much. It's not about "God 'needing' fully God" to accomplish the "salvation of our souls" (Heb. 10). It's about God desiring, because of the "riches of His mercy" to step into our realm of existence as fully Man, to give Himself for our freedom and victory over sin because of love.

                    Only one "fully Man" could honor the terms of the covenants that He made with us; yet as He demonstrated to Abraham, He had a plan to cover "both sides" of the covenant - His end (as fully God) and our end (as fully Man). He is all in all.
                    The Rookie

                    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

                      Originally posted by Rufus View Post
                      I truly hope you get this straightened out in your mind and heart before you die. For as it is written:
                      John 8:24
                      24 "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM [he], you shall die in your sins."
                      Most translations add the personal pronoun "he" after the "am". However, the pronoun is not in any of the original manuscripts. The name "I AM" was the name YHWH in the OT gave to Moses when the prophet asked YHWH, "who shall I say sent me"? "I AM" is the Eternal One -- the self-existent one. Jesus often claimed to be the Eternal One in the gospels.
                      The Trinunity of God is taught everywhere in the bible. Again, I hope you take the above text to heart and get this all-important issue sorted out before you die.Rufus
                      Look, Rufus, ***edited by Admin***
                      please go and read my original post ... ***edited by Admin***

                      P.S. Did you borrow this stuff about John 8:24 from one of my posts?
                      Because it happens to be one of my favorite verses ...
                      maybe it's the only one that says you must believe Jesus is God to be saved.

                      Another P.S. I'm getting quite ***edited by Admin***
                      Last edited by amazzin; Aug 1st 2011, 05:35 PM. Reason: language was less than admirable

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

                        1st law of teaching - if the audience does not understand, the communicator is at fault. If people don't understand, help them understand rather than penalizing them for not being in your head, or penalizing them for the imperfections of typed communication.

                        1st law of Bible Chat Section - do not mock other members when frustrated. When frustrated that people aren't connecting with you, take a breath, don't hit the "post" button, and dial down. That's an official warning to you friend, in case you don't read / understand my post, which happens quite often in the internet discussion forum world.
                        The Rookie

                        Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

                          You say "enough"... "Enough" for what?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

                            Originally posted by Psalms Fan View Post
                            You say "enough"... "Enough" for what?
                            Enough to die for your sins.

                            Why did the Triune Godhead decide to miraculously have the Holy Spirit
                            be the Father of Jesus of Nazareth (instead of a man) (Luke 1:26-35) ???
                            What was the purpose of this ???

                            It was to produce the ultimate perfect sinless human ...
                            who would be the ultimate perfect sinless Sacrifice for your sins.

                            And then we have the carrying on of God's blood covenants from the OT.

                            Also, please consider these 2 lines from post #1 ...

                            “Adam, who is a type of Him (Jesus) who was to come” (Romans 5:14).

                            Pre-fall Adam and Jesus of Nazareth ... were BOTH sinless men.
                            How does that fact fit into things ???

                            None of the above has anything to do with Jesus being "fully God".

                            So ... WHY did the Godhead choose to make Him so?

                            I say this was not necessary for your salvation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: A sinless man was enough! Why did "fully God" need to die for us?

                              Originally posted by John Zain View Post
                              Look, Rufus, ***edited by Admin***
                              please go and read my original post ... ***edited by Admin***

                              P.S. Did you borrow this stuff about John 8:24 from one of my posts?
                              Because it happens to be one of my favorite verses ...
                              maybe it's the only one that says you must believe Jesus is God to be saved.

                              Another P.S. I'm getting quite ***edited by Admin***
                              Sorry, friend, but your posts are too incoherent. You're all over the map. I still hope you get it all sorted out, though.

                              Rufus

                              Comment

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