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  • Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

    Greetings friends.

    Tear this apart if you so desire and let me hear your thoughts.

    Red text indicates common responses or rebuttals.

    Could Jesus sin? As Christians, we universally acknowledge that Jesus did not sin. However, there is uncertainty and disagreement regarding the question, "could He have/currently still sin?" We will explore several facets to this question in this discussion.
    Before we look at Scriptures, we must approach this topic with opens ears and a teachable heart. This topic, like eschatology, usually has great emotional ties and nuances associated with it. Let us be like the Boreans, who searched the Scriptures to determine what was true, and what was not - and then believe what is truth.

    MY PREMISE:

    God cannot sin; He is perfect (Duet 32:4; 2 Sam 22:31; Ps 18:30). Neither can He be tempted by evil (Jam 1:13). This truth is apart of the idenity of God. Any diviation from this core reality would directly conflict with who God is, and we believe He does not change (Ps 59:19; Heb 13:8), making this conclusion impossible.

    Jesus is apart of this Divine Identiy (John 1:1; Col 1:19; Heb 1). If being God is central to Jesus' idenity, then we must conclue that Jesus lived a sinless life (because He is God, not because of a strong will alone), and never had the lure that we feel everyday.

    The Apostle's agenda was not to resolve the question of Jesus' seemingly competing natures (human and divine), but rather, to remove Him from the one category of reality and move Him to where He properly belongs - in the idenity of Yahweh. If Jesus is God ("God" is not primarially a personal noun, but rather, a title), it is not because He has the "Divine Essense" linked to His humanity, but rather, He is YHWH incarnated into a human body.

    for Bible study.jpg

    I thought Jesus had a human nature and a Divine nature. What about Col 3:5, Eph 2:3, Gal 4:8, and others that refer to an 'earthly' nature or, the infamous 'human nature'? Additionally, what about 2 Pet 1:4 that speaks of the 'Divine Nature'? It clearly looks as if there are two distinct natures.

    Nature does NOT mean, "essense". It means, "as a result of inborn or inherent qualities; innately". Essence refers to the molecular make-up of an object. Published dictionaries do not link essense and nature as synonyms on this level.

    Secondly, the Greek word often translated as "nature" is πηυσισ (Strong's 5449) and is pronounced, "foo'-sis". It means, "the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts." In summary, Peter is referring to the unique idenity of YHWH (which was observed above) opposed to man's curropt desire (automatic tendancy) for evil (2 Pet 1:4b).

    Jesus is a human, so even if He is God, wouldn't He still have normal human tendancies (towards sin)?

    No. Paul informs us that Jesus is not apart of Adam's lineage in Romas 5 and 1st Cor 15. He is not affected by Adam's seed to automatically turn towards evil. This is why the virgin birth is so important to understand. Being born of Mary and NOT of Joseph excluded Jesus from Adam's line, making His line a 'new humanity'. This is why all in Adam will die, and all in Jesus will live. When someone proves their faith in Jesus by repenting of their sins, they are included into Jesus' new line by faith, escorted by the Holy Spirit.

    Every Bible I've read says that Jesus was tempted by the Devil in the Wilderness.

    Tempt, I believe, is a bad translation. The Greek is better translated as 'tested' or 'be tried' in this context. This word means, "to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself". Jesus was tested by the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 16:1 (same word). Luke 10:25 uses a different Greek word for testing, but it comes directly from the one used to describe Jesus' trail in Matthew 4 and 16.

    If we have no problem with the religious leaders or Pilate testing Jesus, why are we so disturbed that the Devil would do it?

    Hebrews 4:15 says that Jesus can sympathize with me because He was tempted at every point we were, but didn't choose to sin.

    Tempt is the same word used in Matt 4 and Matt 16. I believe this is not referring to a moral struggle, but rather, should remind us of a greater Job. Jesus understands our weakness that is knit to everyday life; He fully comprehends our struggles and our pains. He endured more than any of us in this room, both physically and emotionally.

    David Pawson disagrees with you. He used Romans 8:3 as a reference.

    His logic is that if 'likeness' is true of Jesus becoming a human in Phil 2:7, then it must apply the same way in Romans 8:3. I agree - Jesus did become a man. However, I believe 'sinful' is what 'likeness' is primarially referring to, not Jesus' humanity.

    Thank you and blessings,

  • #2
    Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

    Originally posted by MarleVVLL View Post
    Greetings friends.

    Tear this apart if you so desire and let me hear your thoughts.

    Red text indicates common responses or rebuttals.

    Could Jesus sin? As Christians, we universally acknowledge that Jesus did not sin. However, there is uncertainty and disagreement regarding the question, "could He have/currently still sin?" We will explore several facets to this question in this discussion.
    Before we look at Scriptures, we must approach this topic with opens ears and a teachable heart. This topic, like eschatology, usually has great emotional ties and nuances associated with it. Let us be like the Boreans, who searched the Scriptures to determine what was true, and what was not - and then believe what is truth.

    MY PREMISE:

    God cannot sin; He is perfect (Duet 32:4; 2 Sam 22:31; Ps 18:30). Neither can He be tempted by evil (Jam 1:13). This truth is apart of the idenity of God. Any diviation from this core reality would directly conflict with who God is, and we believe He does not change (Ps 59:19; Heb 13:8), making this conclusion impossible.

    Jesus is apart of this Divine Identiy (John 1:1; Col 1:19; Heb 1). If being God is central to Jesus' idenity, then we must conclue that Jesus lived a sinless life (because He is God, not because of a strong will alone), and never had the lure that we feel everyday.

    The Apostle's agenda was not to resolve the question of Jesus' seemingly competing natures (human and divine), but rather, to remove Him from the one category of reality and move Him to where He properly belongs - in the idenity of Yahweh. If Jesus is God ("God" is not primarially a personal noun, but rather, a title), it is not because He has the "Divine Essense" linked to His humanity, but rather, He is YHWH incarnated into a human body.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]9969[/ATTACH]

    I thought Jesus had a human nature and a Divine nature. What about Col 3:5, Eph 2:3, Gal 4:8, and others that refer to an 'earthly' nature or, the infamous 'human nature'? Additionally, what about 2 Pet 1:4 that speaks of the 'Divine Nature'? It clearly looks as if there are two distinct natures.

    Nature does NOT mean, "essense". It means, "as a result of inborn or inherent qualities; innately". Essence refers to the molecular make-up of an object. Published dictionaries do not link essense and nature as synonyms on this level.

    Secondly, the Greek word often translated as "nature" is πηυσισ (Strong's 5449) and is pronounced, "foo'-sis". It means, "the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts." In summary, Peter is referring to the unique idenity of YHWH (which was observed above) opposed to man's curropt desire (automatic tendancy) for evil (2 Pet 1:4b).

    Jesus is a human, so even if He is God, wouldn't He still have normal human tendancies (towards sin)?

    No. Paul informs us that Jesus is not apart of Adam's lineage in Romas 5 and 1st Cor 15. He is not affected by Adam's seed to automatically turn towards evil. This is why the virgin birth is so important to understand. Being born of Mary and NOT of Joseph excluded Jesus from Adam's line, making His line a 'new humanity'. This is why all in Adam will die, and all in Jesus will live. When someone proves their faith in Jesus by repenting of their sins, they are included into Jesus' new line by faith, escorted by the Holy Spirit.

    Every Bible I've read says that Jesus was tempted by the Devil in the Wilderness.

    Tempt, I believe, is a bad translation. The Greek is better translated as 'tested' or 'be tried' in this context. This word means, "to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself". Jesus was tested by the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 16:1 (same word). Luke 10:25 uses a different Greek word for testing, but it comes directly from the one used to describe Jesus' trail in Matthew 4 and 16.

    If we have no problem with the religious leaders or Pilate testing Jesus, why are we so disturbed that the Devil would do it?

    Hebrews 4:15 says that Jesus can sympathize with me because He was tempted at every point we were, but didn't choose to sin.

    Tempt is the same word used in Matt 4 and Matt 16. I believe this is not referring to a moral struggle, but rather, should remind us of a greater Job. Jesus understands our weakness that is knit to everyday life; He fully comprehends our struggles and our pains. He endured more than any of us in this room, both physically and emotionally.

    David Pawson disagrees with you. He used Romans 8:3 as a reference.

    His logic is that if 'likeness' is true of Jesus becoming a human in Phil 2:7, then it must apply the same way in Romans 8:3. I agree - Jesus did become a man. However, I believe 'sinful' is what 'likeness' is primarially referring to, not Jesus' humanity.

    Thank you and blessings,
    It seems to me that your premise is based on the definiton of "Cannot". The word "Cannot" does not always necessitate a physical inability. For instance, suppose someone calls me on the phone and says, let's go see a movie. I reply I cannot go, I have a meeting. My statement doesn't mean I am physically incapable of gooing to a movie. Likewise the Statement 'God cannot lie' does not necessitate a physical inability to lie. The statement can also be understood that God is so righteous that He could not bring Himslef to lie.

    Paul said in Hebrews that Christ was made in all ways like His brethren. If that is the case then He had the physical ability to lie.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

      To answer your question quickly no, he did not, Jesus gave the example of being completely and utterly perfect.
      Every temptation is of the devil, and every sin leads to death.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

        I was hoping to have a more meaningful discussion, but it looks as if my entire post was almost skipped.

        Butch - I addressed the premise of Jesus being 'tempted', so my rebuttal to your statement is within my initial post. Using an analogy to prove your point doesn't aid, however, because my entire premise is that your analogy doesn't apply.

        Hunter - I wasn't asking for a resolution to my question because I already gave my proposal. I'm curious what other people think and more importantly, WHY.

        Blessings,

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

          If Jesus was unable to commit a sin then his accomplishment of living a sinless life is nothing special. Of course he could have sinned, but despite being human (yes also God but fully human) and despite having maybe even greater temptations thrown at him and literally the weight of the universe on his shoulders, he did not sin a single time not even in thought.

          The entire purpose was for God to come as a man and avoid sinning. If he couldn't sin then there is NO ACHEIVEMENT at all. Big deal. Who couldn't have been born and lived sinless if they couldn't sin? It is a MIRACLE, truly magnificent for someone to be fully human and yet not sin a single time. It was the greatest feat ever accomplished. Those that say it was impossible for him to sin while he was a flesh man rob him of his deed.

          Originally posted by MarleVVLL View Post
          Greetings friends.

          Tear this apart if you so desire and let me hear your thoughts.

          Red text indicates common responses or rebuttals.

          Could Jesus sin? As Christians, we universally acknowledge that Jesus did not sin. However, there is uncertainty and disagreement regarding the question, "could He have/currently still sin?" We will explore several facets to this question in this discussion.
          Before we look at Scriptures, we must approach this topic with opens ears and a teachable heart. This topic, like eschatology, usually has great emotional ties and nuances associated with it. Let us be like the Boreans, who searched the Scriptures to determine what was true, and what was not - and then believe what is truth.

          MY PREMISE:

          God cannot sin; He is perfect (Duet 32:4; 2 Sam 22:31; Ps 18:30). Neither can He be tempted by evil (Jam 1:13). This truth is apart of the idenity of God. Any diviation from this core reality would directly conflict with who God is, and we believe He does not change (Ps 59:19; Heb 13:8), making this conclusion impossible.

          Jesus is apart of this Divine Identiy (John 1:1; Col 1:19; Heb 1). If being God is central to Jesus' idenity, then we must conclue that Jesus lived a sinless life (because He is God, not because of a strong will alone), and never had the lure that we feel everyday.

          The Apostle's agenda was not to resolve the question of Jesus' seemingly competing natures (human and divine), but rather, to remove Him from the one category of reality and move Him to where He properly belongs - in the idenity of Yahweh. If Jesus is God ("God" is not primarially a personal noun, but rather, a title), it is not because He has the "Divine Essense" linked to His humanity, but rather, He is YHWH incarnated into a human body.

          [ATTACH=CONFIG]9969[/ATTACH]

          I thought Jesus had a human nature and a Divine nature. What about Col 3:5, Eph 2:3, Gal 4:8, and others that refer to an 'earthly' nature or, the infamous 'human nature'? Additionally, what about 2 Pet 1:4 that speaks of the 'Divine Nature'? It clearly looks as if there are two distinct natures.

          Nature does NOT mean, "essense". It means, "as a result of inborn or inherent qualities; innately". Essence refers to the molecular make-up of an object. Published dictionaries do not link essense and nature as synonyms on this level.

          Secondly, the Greek word often translated as "nature" is πηυσισ (Strong's 5449) and is pronounced, "foo'-sis". It means, "the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts." In summary, Peter is referring to the unique idenity of YHWH (which was observed above) opposed to man's curropt desire (automatic tendancy) for evil (2 Pet 1:4b).

          Jesus is a human, so even if He is God, wouldn't He still have normal human tendancies (towards sin)?

          No. Paul informs us that Jesus is not apart of Adam's lineage in Romas 5 and 1st Cor 15. He is not affected by Adam's seed to automatically turn towards evil. This is why the virgin birth is so important to understand. Being born of Mary and NOT of Joseph excluded Jesus from Adam's line, making His line a 'new humanity'. This is why all in Adam will die, and all in Jesus will live. When someone proves their faith in Jesus by repenting of their sins, they are included into Jesus' new line by faith, escorted by the Holy Spirit.

          Every Bible I've read says that Jesus was tempted by the Devil in the Wilderness.

          Tempt, I believe, is a bad translation. The Greek is better translated as 'tested' or 'be tried' in this context. This word means, "to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself". Jesus was tested by the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 16:1 (same word). Luke 10:25 uses a different Greek word for testing, but it comes directly from the one used to describe Jesus' trail in Matthew 4 and 16.

          If we have no problem with the religious leaders or Pilate testing Jesus, why are we so disturbed that the Devil would do it?

          Hebrews 4:15 says that Jesus can sympathize with me because He was tempted at every point we were, but didn't choose to sin.

          Tempt is the same word used in Matt 4 and Matt 16. I believe this is not referring to a moral struggle, but rather, should remind us of a greater Job. Jesus understands our weakness that is knit to everyday life; He fully comprehends our struggles and our pains. He endured more than any of us in this room, both physically and emotionally.

          David Pawson disagrees with you. He used Romans 8:3 as a reference.

          His logic is that if 'likeness' is true of Jesus becoming a human in Phil 2:7, then it must apply the same way in Romans 8:3. I agree - Jesus did become a man. However, I believe 'sinful' is what 'likeness' is primarially referring to, not Jesus' humanity.

          Thank you and blessings,
          James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

            Originally posted by MarleVVLL View Post
            could Jesus have sinned?
            He could have. But He chose not to.
            This IGNORE button is by far one of the most useful tools I've used to keep my peace while navigating through some of the madness.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
              If Jesus was unable to commit a sin then his accomplishment of living a sinless life is nothing special..
              To the contrary, Jesus laying down His life of sinless perfection in the flesh was essential to yours and my salvation.

              For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. 1Pt 3:18

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

                Originally posted by IMINXTC View Post
                To the contrary, Jesus laying down His life of sinless perfection in the flesh was essential to yours and my salvation.
                That's not contrary to what I said.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

                  You said it was nothing special if He was not capable of sinning.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

                    Originally posted by IMINXTC View Post
                    You said it was nothing special if He was not capable of sinning.
                    I said living a sinless life simply because its impossible for you to sin is nothing special.
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      I said living a sinless life simply because its impossible for you to sin is nothing special.
                      On this I'll beg to differ.

                      For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched by the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb4:15

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

                        Originally posted by IMINXTC View Post
                        For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched by the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb4:15
                        Excellent. That's the scripture that came to my mind when I saw this thread. Thanks my man.
                        This IGNORE button is by far one of the most useful tools I've used to keep my peace while navigating through some of the madness.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

                          Who in the days of His flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared. Heb 5:7

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

                            Originally posted by IMINXTC View Post
                            On this I'll beg to differ.

                            For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched by the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb4:15
                            Apparently you don't understand my point.
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Controversial topic: could Jesus have sinned?

                              Perhaps I don't.

                              But Jesus life of sinless perfection in the flesh was special. And not merely because He could not sin, which He could not, but because he was tested and proven even unto blood in His resistance to sin.

                              The key here is that Jesus did not rise above the weakness of flesh in His suffering. He suffered. But being who He is, namely, God, it was not possible that His eternal nature would be corrupted.

                              Comment

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