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Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

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  • Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

    While some people may think that Paul invented the idea of salvation by faith, he argues his case from the book of Genesis, pointing out that God declared Abraham to be justified in view of his faith. Justification by faith is an OT concept.

  • #2
    Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

    I hope this isn't news to anyone.

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    • #3
      Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

      Originally posted by Bandit View Post
      I hope this isn't news to anyone.
      you would be surprised. i have had the question asked many times by adults of "How were old testiment men and women saved if Christ had not died for their sins yet?"

      I think it a fairly common question from my experience.

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      • #4
        Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

        Originally posted by Bandit View Post
        I hope this isn't news to anyone.
        The subject came up in another discussion in which Fenris was a participant.

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        • #5
          Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

          Originally posted by BroRog View Post
          While some people may think that Paul invented the idea of salvation by faith, he argues his case from the book of Genesis, pointing out that God declared Abraham to be justified in view of his faith. Justification by faith is an OT concept.
          2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

          Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
          Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.


          Since the NT was not written until 45AD and forward and not canonized until perhaps around 100AD at the earliest, the only scriptures that they could have had were the books of the OT. These books are able to make one wise unto salvation.

          And yes, unfortunately this is news to some.
          Last edited by John 8:32; Sep 7th 2011, 11:00 AM. Reason: added thought
          I've been throwed outta better places than this.

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          • #6
            Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

            Originally posted by BroRog View Post
            While some people may think that Paul invented the idea of salvation by faith, he argues his case from the book of Genesis, pointing out that God declared Abraham to be justified in view of his faith. Justification by faith is an OT concept.
            I think the quote in question is out of context.

            Philosophically, I don't think this point makes sense. Pre-Christian Jews are depicted as some sort of proto-Christians, which is baffling to me. If Jesus had no new message, the whole NT is superfluous. I see the whole point of the NT being a "new covenant", which is salvation by faith.

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            • #7
              Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

              Originally posted by Fenris View Post
              I think the quote in question is out of context.

              Philosophically, I don't think this point makes sense. Pre-Christian Jews are depicted as some sort of proto-Christians, which is baffling to me. If Jesus had no new message, the whole NT is superfluous. I see the whole point of the NT being a "new covenant", which is salvation by faith.
              "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished" - Romans 3:25

              God's forgiveness of past sin had to be paid for. He is a just God.

              "He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD."- Proverbs 17:15

              "Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?" - Genesis 18:25

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              • #8
                Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

                Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                I think the quote in question is out of context.

                Philosophically, I don't think this point makes sense. Pre-Christian Jews are depicted as some sort of proto-Christians, which is baffling to me. If Jesus had no new message, the whole NT is superfluous. I see the whole point of the NT being a "new covenant", which is salvation by faith.
                First of all Fenris, I really respect you. Your thinking is clear, reasoning is sound and knowledge of the scripture is thorough. This being said, I do disagree, but agreeably. There is a common thread through the OT and NT, and that is God's plan for bringing billions into His family. Jesus' sacrifice was not a stop gap measure, it was not a fix to a problem (Adam's sin) that caught God off guard. It was planned and God is never surprised...

                Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
                Last edited by John 8:32; Sep 7th 2011, 12:55 PM. Reason: spelling & grammar
                I've been throwed outta better places than this.

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                • #9
                  Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

                  Originally posted by John 8:32 View Post
                  First of all Fenris, I really respect you. Your thinking is clear, reasoning is sound and knowledge of the scripture is thorough.
                  how very kind of you to say...
                  This being said, I do disagree, but agreeably. There is a common thread through the OT and NT, and that is God's plan for bringing billions into His family. Jesus' sacrifice was not a stop gap measure, it was not a fix to a problem (Adam's sin) that caught God off guard. It was planned and God is never surprised...
                  I'm sorry, I don't see it. Again, if the "new covenant" doesn't change anything, the NT is superfluous. Only if it teaches a new message is it necessary.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

                    Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                    how very kind of you to say...
                    Wasn't it? I thought so....
                    Originally posted by Fenris
                    I'm sorry, I don't see it. Again, if the "new covenant" doesn't change anything, the NT is superfluous. Only if it teaches a new message is it necessary.
                    Why do you feel the NT doesn't teach a new message?

                    The OT has the Levitical law (I am preaching to the choir.... I know).... The NT (Especially Pauls letters)has the "law of liberty".... In other words.... We don't have to keep Levitical law but may go back in time.... If you will.... And live again by faith as Abraham did.... Only this time.... We have the Savior Jesus who "takes away the sin of the world".... Which Abraham didn't have.... There is something new there.... Several somethings.... But am I offering a derail? Perhaps this is a whole nother thread entirely
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                    • #11
                      Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

                      Originally posted by MaryFreeman View Post
                      Wasn't it? I thought so....
                      Why do you feel the NT doesn't teach a new message?

                      The OT has the Levitical law (I am preaching to the choir.... I know).... The NT (Especially Pauls letters)has the "law of liberty".... In other words.... We don't have to keep Levitical law but may go back in time.... If you will.... And live again by faith as Abraham did.... Only this time.... We have the Savior Jesus who "takes away the sin of the world".... Which Abraham didn't have.... There is something new there.... Several somethings.... But am I offering a derail? Perhaps this is a whole nother thread entirely
                      Hmm...interesting. "Go back in time." Funny...when a bunch of laws, rules are added, it certainly can influence one to...maybe even unintentionally, focus on the mistakes rather than focus on pushing forward...just keep moving toward the goal rather than looking at all the missed opportunities to hit the bulls eye.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

                        Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
                        Hmm...interesting. "Go back in time." Funny...when a bunch of laws, rules are added, it certainly can influence one to...maybe even unintentionally, focus on the mistakes rather than focus on pushing forward...just keep moving toward the goal rather than looking at all the missed opportunities to hit the bulls eye.
                        Exactly...........................
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                        • #13
                          Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

                          Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                          how very kind of you to say...
                          I'm sorry, I don't see it. Again, if the "new covenant" doesn't change anything, the NT is superfluous. Only if it teaches a new message is it necessary.
                          The OT taught the people to anticipate a coming messiah. The NT teaches them that Jesus ben Joseph is also Jesus ben David, the son of God, the king of Israel.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

                            Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                            The OT taught the people to anticipate a coming messiah. The NT teaches them that Jesus ben Joseph is also Jesus ben David, the son of God, the king of Israel.
                            It also teaches of a "new covenant" being applied, so something must have changed since Sinai.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Justrification (salvation) by faith: An OT concept

                              Colossians 1:24-27

                              24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

                              There is much change, and God always does things in a visable and "legal" way. For Abraham believed God would do something and he believed what God had told him, then in Jesus Christ God did it physically and legally for all the world and principalities and powers to see, He put Christ on display before all creation.

                              Now we must believe that all this was done for the reasons God said they were, and believe He has given us all that He has said is in Christ's provision for us.

                              You must believe that you need a Savior before you can ask Him to save you, most people will not admit that, thereby condemming themselves.
                              Mark


                              “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

                              (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

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