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  • Discussion Do we serve a Just God?

    Do we serve a just God? Does God have a plan to save the righteous Jews that have died during the last 2,000 years?
    Hypothetical question; two equally righteous Jews living at about the time of Christ, Christ was put to death . But these 2 Jews were slaves in northern Italy and had never heard a thing about Christ. And one night walking home a robber comes upon them, stabbes one in the heart and the other in the stomach.So the one who was stabbed in the heart dies right away, and be cause he was righteous he goes to mpardise or abraham's bosom. Now there is a lot going on there this man named Jesus has been there for awhile and talking to everyone there, telling them to get ready to follow Him when He leaves soon. So Jesus comes cand talks to the righteous Jew and explains things like no one ever had before, and the righteous Jew believes in Jesus and gets ready to follow Him. So Jesus emptys out pardise. And a few minutes later the Jew with the stomach wound dies, and because he was equally righteous he goes to pardise, BUT no one is there, Jesus emptyed out pardise. So because of a few minutes the one Jew will never see God? Or does God have a plan to save all of ( the congregation of ) Israel ? Through the precious blood of His Son Jesus Christ as the High Priest in a day of atonement ceremony, the last part can be seen in Rev 201-3.

    So then no one comes to the Father except through the Son Jesus Christ. And if it is through a day of atonement ceremony then the 144,000 Jews would not be teaching about the Christ that died on the cross but of the coming Messiah that will blot out the sins of Israel and only the sins of the congregation of Israel, telling the Jews to keep the laws and the Holy Days or be seperated from God for all eternity.

  • #2
    Re: Do we serve a Just God?

    Originally posted by allisraelsaved View Post
    Do we serve a just God? Does God have a plan to save the righteous Jews that have died during the last 2,000 years?
    Hypothetical question; two equally righteous Jews living at about the time of Christ, Christ was put to death . But these 2 Jews were slaves in northern Italy and had never heard a thing about Christ. And one night walking home a robber comes upon them, stabbes one in the heart and the other in the stomach.So the one who was stabbed in the heart dies right away, and be cause he was righteous he goes to mpardise or abraham's bosom. Now there is a lot going on there this man named Jesus has been there for awhile and talking to everyone there, telling them to get ready to follow Him when He leaves soon. So Jesus comes cand talks to the righteous Jew and explains things like no one ever had before, and the righteous Jew believes in Jesus and gets ready to follow Him. So Jesus emptys out pardise. And a few minutes later the Jew with the stomach wound dies, and because he was equally righteous he goes to pardise, BUT no one is there, Jesus emptyed out pardise. So because of a few minutes the one Jew will never see God? Or does God have a plan to save all of ( the congregation of ) Israel ? Through the precious blood of His Son Jesus Christ as the High Priest in a day of atonement ceremony, the last part can be seen in Rev 201-3.

    So then no one comes to the Father except through the Son Jesus Christ. And if it is through a day of atonement ceremony then the 144,000 Jews would not be teaching about the Christ that died on the cross but of the coming Messiah that will blot out the sins of Israel and only the sins of the congregation of Israel, telling the Jews to keep the laws and the Holy Days or be seperated from God for all eternity.
    From Adam until Babylon there was one language and one nation on earth. At Babylon God confused the languages and the “nations” (plural) came into effect. At the time of Abraham, God chose a single man and promised him three things; (i) That he would be the father of a new nation with plenty of seed, (ii) God would give him and his seed a specific piece of the earth, and (iii) his offspring would become a blessing to all families of the earth. About 400 hundred years later Abraham’s nation, called Israel from his grandson Jacob, numbered some millions. Thus, on earth there were the nations (plural) and the nation of Israel.

    Some 2’000 years after Abraham, one of his offspring was born of an Israelite woman, but she had been inseminated by God. This Man grew up, kept the Law perfectly and went to a horrible death as a substitute for all other men, to meet God’s righteous requirements of retribution for a broken law. This man then offered full pardon and restoration of God’s original plan to any man who would believe Who He was, and what He had done. A third people were thus born, for God took out of the nations (plural) and the nation (singular) of Israel to make this new people. It is generally called the Church of Christ.

    Each of these three peoples, the nations, the nation of Israel and the Church have a destiny. The nations, after being judged, fall under promise number (iii). They are blessed by good government, plus God’s blessings on the earth under Jesus. The nation of Israel refused their Messiah and thus reverts to promise number (ii). They are a nation with certain borders. Their King will rule over them. They will be free of foreign occupation. They will prosper, have long life and be free of war. The third people, the Church aspires to the highest goals. They are;
    • Partakers of the divine nature
    • Possessors of eternal life
    • Children of God
    • They cannot fall under eternal damnation
    • They can enjoy the presence of God
    • They will be rulers of the earth
    • They are the Bride of the Messiah
    • They are God’s eternal dwelling place

    Now to your hypothetical case.
    God is the Sovereign Grand Master of His creation. He does as He pleases, just as you do as you please with your possessions. Through God’s selection (which is His right), one man has an IQ of 140 and another has one of 100. One is a 6-foot tall athlete and another 5-foot 6-inched scholar. But the athlete dies in an accident at age 35 and the scholar lives till 94. This is God’s divine selection. Your two Jews fall under this sovereign selection.

    The one who died short of the gospel will have his destiny under the promises and covenants that God has ratified. He will be resurrected, restored to his Land and enjoy an eternity of human bliss.

    The other man, the one who hears and believes, is taken out of the future that was promised to him under the covenants to Israel, and is placed in situation of promise over an above that of Israel. His destiny is the eight points above.

    Throughout history, there has been God’s sovereign selection. However, God gave each man the ability to choose things. In God’s foreknowledge, He knows how each man would have decided on any given matter, even if the man is never faced with the decision. God grants us much movement within this ability to choose, but sooner or later, He, as Divine and competent Governor of this universe will intervene. Any man in authority is obliged to intervene when things get out of hand. The early death of the one Jew is God’s choice, but his destiny is secured by promise. The later death and more profitable life of the second Jew is God’s selection. Hitler had a free will, but his dream of a thousand years German “Reich” is stopped by God’s selection. Hitler waged war on the Jews (among other groups) and by exercising his will there was much suffering, but at a certain point in time God intervenes and Europe has had 65 years of peace.

    We may not agree with God’s sovereign selection and/or His intervention, but a last assize still awaits where final justice is done to men who exercised their will as enemies of God and His creation. After this, each man receives his destiny as per (i) his own actions, and (ii) the promises given him. If one seems to receive more than another, who can argue with God’s selection? If one receives one’s portion that God has promised, everything else is God’s goodness, not God's failing. All men should be destined for the eternal trash heap. But through God’s promises and the great sacrifice of His beloved Son, men receive much more than they deserved.

    God's selection is repugnant to fallen men. They refuse to bow to God's sovereignty and aspire to create a political system that overthrows God's selection. It is called Communism. We are all, to a lesser or greater degree, affected by this natural falleness.

    P.S.
    Paradise is only partly emptied at the second coming of Jesus, not before.

    P.P.S
    The day of atonement will surely be a feast in restored Israel, but the only thing that can move a man from Israel into the Church is to believe in the Son of God, before He appears. Thereafter, it is no more belief, but sight (faith is the substance of things not seen). The 144’000 are not believers. They are a remnant who return to the Law of Moses (Deut.30:1-6)

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    • #3
      Re: Do we serve a Just God?

      Originally posted by allisraelsaved View Post
      Do we serve a just God? Does God have a plan to save the righteous Jews that have died during the last 2,000 years?
      Hypothetical question; two equally righteous Jews living at about the time of Christ, Christ was put to death . But these 2 Jews were slaves in northern Italy and had never heard a thing about Christ. And one night walking home a robber comes upon them, stabbes one in the heart and the other in the stomach.So the one who was stabbed in the heart dies right away, and be cause he was righteous he goes to mpardise or abraham's bosom. Now there is a lot going on there this man named Jesus has been there for awhile and talking to everyone there, telling them to get ready to follow Him when He leaves soon. So Jesus comes cand talks to the righteous Jew and explains things like no one ever had before, and the righteous Jew believes in Jesus and gets ready to follow Him. So Jesus emptys out pardise. And a few minutes later the Jew with the stomach wound dies, and because he was equally righteous he goes to pardise, BUT no one is there, Jesus emptyed out pardise. So because of a few minutes the one Jew will never see God? Or does God have a plan to save all of ( the congregation of ) Israel ? Through the precious blood of His Son Jesus Christ as the High Priest in a day of atonement ceremony, the last part can be seen in Rev 201-3.

      So then no one comes to the Father except through the Son Jesus Christ. And if it is through a day of atonement ceremony then the 144,000 Jews would not be teaching about the Christ that died on the cross but of the coming Messiah that will blot out the sins of Israel and only the sins of the congregation of Israel, telling the Jews to keep the laws and the Holy Days or be seperated from God for all eternity.
      God will judge all men according to their works...not on whether they accepted a salvation plan. God is infinitely just. We will marvel at His decrees. God is also merciful. He will not charge someone to be more than they are able to with what they have been given.

      We who have received the grace of the Lord in Christ, are called to run to attain the full stature of Christ. So we will be judged the harsher if we neglect our calling.

      Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



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      • #4
        Re: Do we serve a Just God?

        No, we do not serve a just God. If God were just, none of us would be here having this conversation, we would have received what we justly deserved.

        Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
        Psa 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

        Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
        Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness
        Last edited by John 8:32; Oct 10th 2011, 02:16 PM. Reason: my editing skills leave much to be desired
        I've been throwed outta better places than this.

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        • #5
          Re: Do we serve a Just God?

          Originally posted by John 8:32
          No, we do not serve a just God. If God were just, none of us would be here having this conversation, we would have received what we justly deserved.
          May be true, but also the Bible calls Joseph a just man and not willing to make an example out of Mary (Mt.1:19). And the Bible tells us to do justice and love mercy (Mic.6:8), so there's a couple cases where justice seems to be linked to mercy.

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          • #6
            Re: Do we serve a Just God?

            Originally posted by allisraelsaved View Post
            Do we serve a just God? Does God have a plan to save the righteous Jews that have died during the last 2,000 years?
            Hypothetical question; two equally righteous Jews living at about the time of Christ, Christ was put to death . But these 2 Jews were slaves in northern Italy and had never heard a thing about Christ. And one night walking home a robber comes upon them, stabbes one in the heart and the other in the stomach.So the one who was stabbed in the heart dies right away, and be cause he was righteous he goes to mpardise or abraham's bosom. Now there is a lot going on there this man named Jesus has been there for awhile and talking to everyone there, telling them to get ready to follow Him when He leaves soon. So Jesus comes cand talks to the righteous Jew and explains things like no one ever had before, and the righteous Jew believes in Jesus and gets ready to follow Him. So Jesus emptys out pardise. And a few minutes later the Jew with the stomach wound dies, and because he was equally righteous he goes to pardise, BUT no one is there, Jesus emptyed out pardise. So because of a few minutes the one Jew will never see God? Or does God have a plan to save all of ( the congregation of ) Israel ? Through the precious blood of His Son Jesus Christ as the High Priest in a day of atonement ceremony, the last part can be seen in Rev 201-3.

            So then no one comes to the Father except through the Son Jesus Christ. And if it is through a day of atonement ceremony then the 144,000 Jews would not be teaching about the Christ that died on the cross but of the coming Messiah that will blot out the sins of Israel and only the sins of the congregation of Israel, telling the Jews to keep the laws and the Holy Days or be seperated from God for all eternity.
            Well I see a couple of errors here dear one.... I hope I can edify you....

            First.... When Jesus empties out Paradise and shuts it down.... There is no need for us to wait until a pure sacrifice is made in order to go directly to where God is.... The righteous Jew who died of a stomach wound would not go to paradise.... He would go to God....

            What is it that makes anyone righteous? It is faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and the attendant acts (the way we live because we are saved) that make us righteous.... Consider Abraham.... He committed a righteous act of faith by obeying God and putting his son on the altar.... Because he had faith that God would keep His promise and raise the son of that promise from the dead.... The plan He has for saving you is the same plan He had for saving the "righteous" Jews during the last 2000 years....

            Here is a passage no one wants to read.... We would all rather focus on verse 16 and be warm and fuzzy.... But Jesus said it....

            Joh 3:14-21 LITV
            (14) And even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
            (15) that
            everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
            (16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
            (17) For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
            (18) The one believing into Him is not condemned;
            but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.
            (19) And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness more than the Light, for their works were evil.
            (20) For everyone practicing wickedness hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, that his works may not be exposed.

            (21) But the one doing the truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.


            As far as Revelation 20:1-3 goes.... That part deals with satan deceiving the nations.... Not just Israel.... I don't understand the part about "atonement ceremony".... Hebrews tells us that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice and put an end to sacrifices the day He died.... Atonement was obtained on a cross.... Certainly not a ceremonial pretty about that.... It was one of the ugliest things that can happen to a person....
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            • #7
              Re: Do we serve a Just God?

              Originally posted by John 8:32 View Post
              No, we do not serve a just God. If God were just, none of us would be here having this conversation, we would have received what we justly deserved.

              Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
              Psa 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

              Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
              Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness
              These verses are all true. So how can God maintain His reputation as a just God... and still forgive? The two, justice and mercy are antagonists. If the Law of a country says if a man drives drunk and kills somebody, he must pay 100 million dollars fine to those who lost the victim. If a man is caught in this failure and the judge sentences him to anything less, the judge is unjust. If the judge extends mercy, he might be merciful, but of the purposes of Law, he is unrighteous or unjust.

              God maintains His perfect reputation for righteousness or justice in that Somebody else pays the price. Law does not recognize who pays the fine. We could not possibly pay, so a Volunteer comes and pays. The Law is satisfied. Now the Judge may let him free. The man is saved and mercy has been extended. But what an act of love to pay such a price to maintain God's reputation! God will elevate Him to the highest state. You all know this Man. You wouldn't be on this Forum if you had not received the benefit of His substitutionary death.

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              • #8
                Re: Do we serve a Just God?

                Originally posted by episkopos View Post
                God will judge all men according to their works...not on whether they accepted a salvation plan.
                Please forgive that I find this offensive.... This sentence paints Jesus a liar.... And it will only take one verse to prove it....

                Joh 3:18 LITV
                (18) The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

                Of course.... Religious psychobabble ALWAYS goes contrary to the words of Jesus Himself.... No one wants to think they cannot obtain anything on their own.... We all wish to be self reliant and self sufficient.... But if that were true in the case of salvation.... Jesus suffered a death so horrific they had to make up a new word to describe it for nothing.... How very sad....
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                • #9
                  Re: Do we serve a Just God?

                  Originally posted by Walls View Post
                  These verses are all true. So how can God maintain His reputation as a just God... and still forgive? The two, justice and mercy are antagonists. If the Law of a country says if a man drives drunk and kills somebody, he must pay 100 million dollars fine to those who lost the victim. If a man is caught in this failure and the judge sentences him to anything less, the judge is unjust. If the judge extends mercy, he might be merciful, but of the purposes of Law, he is unrighteous or unjust.

                  God maintains His perfect reputation for righteousness or justice in that Somebody else pays the price. Law does not recognize who pays the fine. We could not possibly pay, so a Volunteer comes and pays. The Law is satisfied. Now the Judge may let him free. The man is saved and mercy has been extended. But what an act of love to pay such a price to maintain God's reputation! God will elevate Him to the highest state. You all know this Man. You wouldn't be on this Forum if you had not received the benefit of His substitutionary death.
                  I hope you realize that I said that God was not just tongue-in-cheek. It was meant for a little brevity.

                  Of course God is completely, 100% just. This is why the law is not done away. If the law were done away, there would be no price to pay, but Christ came to pay that terrible price once for all. This affirms that the law is in effect, were it not, we would not need Christ to pay the price to justify us.
                  I've been throwed outta better places than this.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Do we serve a Just God?

                    Originally posted by episkopos View Post
                    God will judge all men according to their works...not on whether they accepted a salvation plan.
                    Sorry I don't agree with you.
                    We will be judged according to our faith, and rewarded according to our works...
                    The LORD is my Miracle

                    G_d was gracious He has shown favor


                    Hope is a seed
                    God plants in our hearts
                    to remind us
                    there are better things ahead.
                    -Holley Gerth

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                    • #11
                      Re: Do we serve a Just God?

                      Originally posted by John 8:32 View Post
                      I hope you realize that I said that God was not just tongue-in-cheek. It was meant for a little brevity.

                      Of course God is completely, 100% just. This is why the law is not done away. If the law were done away, there would be no price to pay, but Christ came to pay that terrible price once for all. This affirms that the law is in effect, were it not, we would not need Christ to pay the price to justify us.
                      I understood it as such. I just had a thought that a young Christian might not though. The good thing is that you gave me a chance to add something that some Christians are not clear on. Teamwork, I would say. I often employ this trick myself. I will be in a group of mixed Christians and heathen. I will seemingly take up a controversy with another Christian over some point. Then, all present, believer and infidel, don't realize that they've taken sides and are listening with interest. But they get to hear the Word. Of course, sometimes I have to go and eat humble pie and apologize to my dear brother or sister (and get rebuked for it). "Be wise as serpents and gentle as doves."

                      Your Brother in Christ

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                      • #12
                        Re: Do we serve a Just God?

                        Originally posted by John 8:32 View Post
                        No, we do not serve a just God. If God were just, none of us would be here having this conversation, we would have received what we justly deserved.

                        Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
                        Psa 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

                        Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
                        Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness
                        I like it. God is known for not giving us what we deserve.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Do we serve a Just God?

                          Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
                          I like it. God is known for not giving us what we deserve.
                          Yes, instead we get what we don't deserve
                          The LORD is my Miracle

                          G_d was gracious He has shown favor


                          Hope is a seed
                          God plants in our hearts
                          to remind us
                          there are better things ahead.
                          -Holley Gerth

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                          • #14
                            Re: Do we serve a Just God?

                            Originally posted by John 8:32 View Post
                            I hope you realize that I said that God was not just tongue-in-cheek. It was meant for a little brevity.
                            Everytime I see "Do we serve a Just God?" I can't help but see "Do we serve just a God?"
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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