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Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

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  • Doulos
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    Is this before or after Christ came?

    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Firstfruits
    This is both before and after Christ came. Hebrews is speaking to those after Christ and showing those before Christ as examples to them. This means it has to be relevant to both groups.

    Leave a comment:


  • david
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    What about Gentiles and the law, are they to choose to become as Jews?

    Firstfruits
    I looked through Galatians 2 and would like to share my interpretation of it. I am open to counter-arguments.

    11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. 12 For he regularly ate with the Gentiles before certain men came from James. However, when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, because he feared those from the circumcision party (to join the circumcision party, not go against them). 13 Then the rest of the Jews joined his hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were deviating from the truth of the gospel, I told Cephas in front of everyone, “If you, who are a Jew (i.e., by nationality), live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel Gentiles to live like Jews?” (Peter drew back from justification by faith in front of Gentiles, after he had just led the group to preach the gospel earlier.)

    15 We who are Jews by birth (inherent meaning, under the old covenant) and not Gentile sinners (contrasts "Jews by birth;" hence, "sinners" and "sin" in these verses mean not being under the old covenant, because that's how it was back in the OT; see Colossians 2:13) 16 know that no one is justified by the works of the law (the law = old covenant, 2 Corinthians 3:14-15) but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law (making us not under the law but under grace, ro 6.14-15), because by the works of the law no human being will be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ (believing in justification by faith) we ourselves have also been found sinners (are also found by Gentiles to be not under the law as they are), is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!

    18 For if I rebuild what I have destroyed (that is, trying to justify myself under the law), I prove myself to be a lawbreaker (by the law's conviction). 19 For through the law I have died to the law, so that I might live for God (through the law I was led to Christ, so that I would die to the law). I have been crucified with Christ 20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God (by going back to justification by law), for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing. Galatians 2:11-21

    Leave a comment:


  • keck553
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    Before Christ came and established the new covenant, yes.

    Firstfruits
    So Jesus was not necessary then?

    Leave a comment:


  • david
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    The issue here is righteousness. If we can still be made righteous with God through the law then do we really need Christ?

    Firstfruits
    Firstfruits, at least you do agree that we are required to love one another in deed and in truth, right?
    Whoever does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. 1 John 3:14-18

    Leave a comment:


  • Firstfruits
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by keck553 View Post
    Were Zechariah and Elisheva justified in His sight?
    Before Christ came and established the new covenant, yes.

    Firstfruits

    Leave a comment:


  • keck553
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    Is this before or after Christ came?

    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Firstfruits
    Were Zechariah and Elisheva justified in His sight?

    Leave a comment:


  • Firstfruits
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Doulos View Post
    This is how those prior to Christ (and after) are found righteous.

    Hebrews 10 (NASB95)
    36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
    37 For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
    38 But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.
    39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
    Hebrews 10 (NASB95)
    1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
    2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
    3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
    4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

    (Bold is mine)

    This includes Zechariah and Elizabeth.
    Is this before or after Christ came?

    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Firstfruits

    Leave a comment:


  • keck553
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Doulos View Post
    This is how those prior to Christ (and after) are found righteous.

    Hebrews 10 (NASB95)
    36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
    37 For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
    38 But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.
    39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
    Hebrews 10 (NASB95)
    1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
    2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
    3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
    4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

    (Bold is mine)

    This includes Zechariah and Elizabeth.
    Thank you. I didn't think it would take this long......

    Leave a comment:


  • Doulos
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    They had the righteousness that was through the law. Jesus was not yet established.

    Firstfruits
    This is how those prior to Christ (and after) are found righteous.

    Hebrews 10 (NASB95)
    36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
    37 For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
    38 But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.
    39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
    Hebrews 10 (NASB95)
    1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
    2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
    3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
    4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

    (Bold is mine)

    This includes Zechariah and Elizabeth.

    Leave a comment:


  • keck553
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    They had the righteousness that was through the law. Jesus was not yet established.

    Firstfruits
    Why was Jesus necessary if people like Zechariah and Elisheva could be righteous throught the Law without Him?

    Leave a comment:


  • Firstfruits
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by keck553 View Post
    That's not what you said earlier. Again, why did Luke record Zechariah and Elisheva righteous?
    They had the righteousness that was through the law. Jesus was not yet established.

    Firstfruits

    Leave a comment:


  • Firstfruits
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by John 8:32 View Post
    So doing away with the law gives you righteousness?
    No it does not, the law is no longer required in order to attain the righteousness of God.

    Firstfruits

    Leave a comment:


  • keck553
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    With their own righteousness, not the righteousness of God.

    Firstfruits
    That's not what you said earlier. Again, why did Luke record Zechariah and Elisheva righteous?

    Leave a comment:


  • John 8:32
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    It is the attaining of righteousness, and the righteousness that is of God that we need to address. We could keep the law 100% and not attain the righteousness of God.

    Firstfruits
    So doing away with the law gives you righteousness?

    Leave a comment:


  • Firstfruits
    replied
    Re: Law Of Christ V Law Of Moses?

    Originally posted by John 8:32 View Post
    If there is no law then there is no sin...

    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    If there is no sin,
    It is the attaining of righteousness, and the righteousness that is of God that we need to address. We could keep the law 100% and not attain the righteousness of God.

    Firstfruits

    Leave a comment:

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