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  • Discussion Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

    Revelation 7: 2-4 links with revelation 14: 1-4 'a hundred and forty four thousand' and rev 7: 4-9 states that these hundred and forty four thousand will come from all the nations and tribes, peoples and tounges standing before the throne and before the lamb (Jesus Christ)these hundred and forty four thousand going to rule in heaven with Jesus??

  • #2
    Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

    I do not believe they do link. The 144,000 are Israelites 12,000 from each tribe they are the remnant talked about in OT prophecy. I don't see the 144,000 as saints but innocent Jews saved from destruction.

    Revelation 4
    1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
    5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;[a]
    of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
    6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
    7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
    8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

    The first group are clearly numbered and identified as being from specific Israeli tribes. The second great multitude no one could number. Clearly the Book of revelation is revealing two different groups of people. The 144,000 innocents descendants of Israel being one and the tribulated Saints being the other.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

      Originally posted by Godskingdom View Post
      Revelation 7: 2-4 links with revelation 14: 1-4 'a hundred and forty four thousand' and rev 7: 4-9 states that these hundred and forty four thousand will come from all the nations and tribes, peoples and tounges standing before the throne and before the lamb (Jesus Christ)these hundred and forty four thousand going to rule in heaven with Jesus??
      I don't think so. Jesus is on Zion, not in heaven, when he meets with the 144,000.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

        Originally posted by Godskingdom View Post
        Revelation 7: 2-4 links with revelation 14: 1-4 'a hundred and forty four thousand' and rev 7: 4-9 states that these hundred and forty four thousand will come from all the nations and tribes, peoples and tounges standing before the throne and before the lamb (Jesus Christ)these hundred and forty four thousand going to rule in heaven with Jesus??
        The 144000 aren't from all nations and tribes (Rev 7:3-8 and Rev 7:9-15 are two different groups, the one in 7:3-8 is countable, while the one in 7:9-15 is uncountable, the one in 7:3-8 are Jewish Christians, while the ones in 7:9-15 are Christians from all nations and tribes).

        The ones in 7:3-8 (i.e. the 144000) will reign with Christ since they follow the Lamb (14:4), they were purchased by Christ (14:4), and they have already been redeemed from the earth by Christ (14:3).

        Note that these verses 7:3-8 and 14:1-5 is NOT saying that there are only 144000 that will reign with Christ (after all we know from 7:9-15 that the total number of saints will be completely innumerable!!!)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

          Originally posted by Adstars View Post
          I do not believe they do link. The 144,000 are Israelites 12,000 from each tribe they are the remnant talked about in OT prophecy. I don't see the 144,000 as saints but innocent Jews saved from destruction.

          Revelation 4
          1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
          5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;[a]
          of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
          of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
          6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
          of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
          of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
          7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
          of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
          of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
          8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
          of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
          of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
          9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

          The first group are clearly numbered and identified as being from specific Israeli tribes. The second great multitude no one could number. Clearly the Book of revelation is revealing two different groups of people. The 144,000 innocents descendants of Israel being one and the tribulated Saints being the other.



          All Praise The Ancient Of Days


          Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
          Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
          Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
          Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


          The 144,000 are not ethnic Jews only....but are gathered from among all men...This is stated twice! In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free...unless you think the gospel has no place in the kingdom.

          Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



          sigpic
          מרן אתא

          Walk in the Light!
          התהלכו באור

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          • #6
            Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

            9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

            Is not natural Judea included in ALL NATIONS? With Christ there are no favourites.

            Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



            sigpic
            מרן אתא

            Walk in the Light!
            התהלכו באור

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

              Originally posted by episkopos View Post
              Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
              Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
              Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
              Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


              The 144,000 are not ethnic Jews only....but are gathered from among all men...This is stated twice! In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free...unless you think the gospel has no place in the kingdom.
              Let's look at this a little closer. When it says, "which were redeemed from the earth" it isn't telling us what planet from which they will come. The "earth" is where the Jews were in exile when they were taken captive in the Jewish wars of the first century as Jesus predicted. So when it says they were redeemed "from" the earth, it is talking about how the Jews will be/were regathered back into their homeland to meet Jesus on Mt. Zion.

              In chapter 7, where the 144,000 are first mentioned it says that angels held back the winds from blowing on the earth. This is another reference to the end of the exile. When the winds blew, the winds sent the people into the nations to live among the nations during their exile. When the winds stop blowing, the Jews are allowed to return to the land of their fathers.

              When it says they were redeemed from among men, it relies on our knowing that the Jews were previously sent into the world to live among the rest of mankind, and that during the time when the prophecy will be fulfilled these Jewish believers will come out from among the rest of humanity to gather again in the land of their fathers to worship God on Mt.Zion with Jesus.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

                Originally posted by episkopos View Post
                Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
                Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
                Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
                Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


                The 144,000 are not ethnic Jews only....but are gathered from among all men...This is stated twice! In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free...unless you think the gospel has no place in the kingdom.
                No, it doesn't state it a single time. They are ethnic Jews, down to the very tribe they are from. They are Jews racially and Christians religiously.

                "These were redeemed from among men" can only mean they were "paid for" and removed from mankind. In a previous verse it states, "which were redeemed from the earth".

                This does not mean nor can it mean they are from non-Jewish heritage.
                James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

                  Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                  No, it doesn't state it a single time. They are ethnic Jews, down to the very tribe they are from. They are Jews racially and Christians religiously.

                  "These were redeemed from among men" can only mean they were "paid for" and removed from mankind. In a previous verse it states, "which were redeemed from the earth".

                  This does not mean nor can it mean they are from non-Jewish heritage.
                  How can you say this? God isn't a racist, since the cross.

                  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
                  (Gal 3:28)

                  If they are redeemed from among men, on the earth, that can only mean they are Christians because only Christ can redeem and set us 'apart'. This is what being "called out" is.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

                    Originally posted by Raybob View Post
                    How can you say this? God isn't a racist, since the cross.
                    God was "racist" before it??

                    Since then? Shame on you to imply anything more.

                    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
                    (Gal 3:28)
                    A weak, or the weakest "argument" that I have ever seen.



                    If they are redeemed from among men, on the earth, that can only mean they are Christians because only Christ can redeem and set us 'apart'. This is what being "called out" is.
                    They are indeed Christians. How can you get that right but miss so badly on the other?
                    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

                      There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
                      (Gal 3:28)
                      Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                      ...A weak, or the weakest "argument" that I have ever seen.
                      ..
                      So you believe there's a difference between a saved gentile and a saved Jew? Did you know I am a saved Jew? My grandfather studied to be a Rabi at Hebrew Union College. I'm the only saved person, I know of, from my family. Does this make me special in your eyes, in some ways 'set apart' from other Christians??? I beg to differ.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

                        Originally posted by Raybob View Post
                        So you believe there's a difference between a saved gentile and a saved Jew?
                        No, but what I would like is that you to address my points, point by point, as I have yours. God "clearly" speaks of Jews down to the actual tribe from their birth. You claim any race of person can qualify for this...laughable if I could laugh at such error.



                        Did you know I am a saved Jew?
                        No but congrats! That's a good thing!

                        My grandfather studied to be a Rabi at Hebrew Union College. I'm the only saved person, I know of, from my family. Does this make me special in your eyes, in some ways 'set apart' from other Christians??? I beg to differ.
                        See above, and I mean, above above.
                        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

                          Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                          No, but what I would like is that you to address my points, point by point, as I have yours. God "clearly" speaks of Jews down to the actual tribe from their birth. You claim any race of person can qualify for this...laughable if I could laugh at such error...
                          Speaking of error, I'm sure I have relatives from the tribe of Dan. I don't see them listed. They are listed in the OT but they sure aren't even mentioned in Revelation. What does that say about anyone from the tribe of Dan that gets saved???

                          Do you believe in a rapture? Will I, as a saved Jew, be raptured? Will I have some 'special calling' so I won't be raptured when Jesus comes for His church?

                          I'd address points but I don't see any. What's the point?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

                            Originally posted by Raybob View Post
                            Speaking of error, I'm sure I have relatives from the tribe of Dan. I don't see them listed. They are listed in the OT but they sure aren't even mentioned in Revelation.
                            Don't charge the scriptures with error.

                            What does that say about anyone from the tribe of Dan that gets saved???
                            Doesn't mean anything. They simply aren't chosen to be sealed in the end times.

                            Do you believe in a rapture?
                            "a" rapture/gathering, yes...post trib.


                            Will I, as a saved Jew, be raptured?
                            Racial identity is very minor compared to religious identity. You're a Christian and at that time, God will "rapture" those who are worthy.


                            Will I have some 'special calling' so I won't be raptured when Jesus comes for His church?
                            Totally up to God but my advice is to not even worry about such things. Follow Christ and everything will happen as God decides.

                            I'd address points but I don't see any. What's the point?
                            The point was the 144k are only Christian Jews from those tribes. Non-JEws who are Christians simply aren't chosen for that specific role.
                            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Limited number with Jesus in heavens?? Rev 14. 1-4

                              Originally posted by ewq1938 View Post
                              Don't charge the scriptures with error.
                              I did no such thing. There is no error here. This list of tribes is NOT the same 12 tribes of Israel found in the old testament.

                              And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
                              (Rev 7:4-8)

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