Eternal Security (Once Saved Always Saved)

[Redeemed by Grace]

What did Jesus do for Peter save praying for him? Call it a hunch but I figure He prayed for all of them for those 3 plus a bit years. But even still... we can ask the same about why did Jesus pray and say that about Peter but not John? Matthew? etc? Why did Jesus pray that specific prayer only for Peter? We can't say one way or the other or even if it was only for Peter (although we can assume because of the wording that there was something special about Peter) that Jesus prayed. What we can say is that it was recorded what Jesus said to Peter and not any others.

And again... I made the case why I believe Jesus did. Unless of course you can show me where Jesus just lets whomever preach the gospel and cast out demons and heal the sick and etc? Show me that and you well might have a case.

No they weren't and I'd hope you know me by now better than that. But what they did have was the full authority of Christ to cast out demons, heal the sick, raise the dead, etc. In that Jesus entrusted Himself to them. It is a perfect example of "entrusting Himself" in all honesty.

We aren't talking about just preaching the word of God RbG right? We again are speaking of casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead... you know, the little things like that. Now... if Judas was never a believer in the first place... by what power did he do this? Either Jesus or satan. And if you say Jesus then you will have to show where this was done anywhere in Scripture. Folks can talk about most anything and some rather effectively. But the signs that follow believers... that they ain't going to fake.

So... your position is in defending that Judas was at one time saved, and then lost his salvation -- am I correct? And you are basing this on that he was one of the twelve?

And you are also stating that because Jesus gave them authority [not power], but authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness, you are claiming that they are the one doing this -- because they are saved? [by the way, God will allow [dare I say give] satan and the antichrist power in the last days to perform signs and wonders as well... but that is another topic for another thread... ]

So as one of the twelve, what can be said of Judas? Do we know how he became a disciple? Do we know how many demons he casted out? How many people did he witnessed to? No -- we don’t know either way… all we know is that he is one of the 12 and that Jesus used the disciples to proclaim to the region that Jesus has come, and in doing so Jesus gave the 12 the authority in doing so, but the work was and is always of and by God.

This does not mean that they had to be “saved” to do God’s will, it means that they were given God’s will to do. Nothing more. So assuming that Judas or any disciple at the time were saved is an assumption… but we know that they all later questioned their faith at the last table, for they all were in the same condition in their own mind.

So casting out demons is not anyone’s work but God’s -- and we know that God will use even a donkey if he had to do His will… so I see no difference in the vehicle He uses to work through…. Judas followed Jesus with his feet, but his heart was not even close in following and submitting to Him. So giving them authority is not entrusting Himself in my book... for this was not a sign that they were saved, but that the Christ had come and is among the people.

John called Judas a thief, for he stole money from the treasury for himself. He was a betrayer, he was an accuser, and he was always self-serving

No, I see scripture stating very clearly that Jesus loved Judas and gave trust to him, but Judas, and yes having his own thoughts and will, was self-serving always and equally was used by God to be an implement to send Jesus to the cross, as it was told would happen in scripture…

Humbling, ain't it?


PS... Consider the following, that way before Judas' denial, Jesus called Judas a devil, and yet He chose him... For salvation or for what other reasoning? This leads me to say that Jesus saw Judas' heart from beginning to end...

John 6:65-71
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

[ProjectPeter]

So... your position is in defending that Judas was at one time saved, and then lost his salvation -- am I correct? And you are basing this on that he was one of the twelve?

There hasn't been many an OSAS/NOSAS discussion that has been on this board when this hasn't come up! I've always taken that stand... strange that you've not noticed that before. And no I am not basing that on "he was one of the twelve." Goodness... what I have I just posted in the last four or five post to you on this? I wished there was a scratching my head emoticon thingy because I suppose I am wondering why we are even having the discussion because I don't know how I can be any more clear than what I've written to this point.

And you are also stating that because Jesus gave them authority [not power], but authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness, you are claiming that they are the one doing this -- because they are saved? [by the way, God will allow [dare I say give] satan and the antichrist power in the last days to perform signs and wonders as well... but that is another topic for another thread... ]

Sure it would be another topic and one I'd strongly disagree with you on based on what you have said in this little bit.

So as one of the twelve, what can be said of Judas? Do we know how he became a disciple? Do we know how many demons he casted out? How many people did he witnessed to? No -- we don’t know either way… all we know is that he is one of the 12 and that Jesus used the disciples to proclaim to the region that Jesus has come, and in doing so Jesus gave the 12 the authority in doing so, but the work was and is always of and by God.

This does not mean that they had to be “saved” to do God’s will, it means that they were given God’s will to do. Nothing more. So assuming that Judas or any disciple at the time were saved is an assumption… but we know that they all later questioned their faith at the last table, for they all were in the same condition in their own mind.

So casting out demons is not anyone’s work but God’s -- and we know that God will use even a donkey if he had to do His will… so I see no difference in the vehicle He uses to work through…. Judas followed Jesus with his feet, but his heart was not even close in following and submitting to Him. So giving them authority is not entrusting Himself in my book... for this was not a sign that they were saved, but that the Christ had come and is among the people.

And again... all that sounds good to you I suppose but here's the truth. You do not have any Scripture that shows where God worked signs of miracles in the name of Christ through a donkey or a heathen. It came from believers. You go on about how Judas followed Jesus as if you know? Scripture tells you enough to clearly understand that Judas didn't persevere... no doubt. But that is all you can draw from Scripture. Everything else is your assuming based on your doctrinal leaning.

John called Judas a thief, for he stole money from the treasury for himself. He was a betrayer, he was an accuser, and he was always self-serving

And again... John is speaking many years after the fact. When Jesus makes the point of the betrayer... that point is made near the end of His walk on this earth. John knew nothing until after the fact. Just like the others... John figured Judas was heading out to give money to the poor when Jesus told him to go on and do what he needs to do. That is unless you have Scripture that tells us differently. So far... you have yet to provide any.

No, I see scripture stating very clearly that Jesus loved Judas and gave trust to him, but Judas, and yes having his own thoughts and will, was self-serving always and equally was used by God to be an implement to send Jesus to the cross, as it was told would happen in scripture…

Humbling, ain't it?

Where do you see Scripture laying all that out about Judas save the end of Judas' life? Where do you see it speak of his "always" being that way?

PS... Consider the following, that way before Judas' denial, Jesus called Judas a devil, and yet He chose him... For salvation or for what other reasoning? This leads me to say that Jesus saw Judas' heart from beginning to end...

John 6:65-71
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

That wasn't "way before the denial". If you follow the time line the way that John wrote... the majority of his writing came the last few months of Jesus' ministry here on earth. I can lay it out for you, have done it in many of these discussions already. But right now I am heading to the church and will have to do all of that later.

[tHbaGLORY]

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

Rom 8:34
Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Rom 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom 8:37
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Rom 8:38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That includes ourselves. When we are saved through the blood of Christ we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit and nothing can seperate us from Christ. You don't become unborn again, or untransformed, or revert back to an old creation... These verses say it all--Once Christ saves you, you are his forever...

For if works is necessary to maintain Salvation, then salvation is only attained through works. If this is so, then Christ died for nothing. Can any Christian tell me of a Christian who has not sinned? Is there anyone of us that does not sin every single day? Show me the verse that tells us exactly what our alotment for sin is, before we are cut off. The verses above are very clear--nothing, NOTHING can seperate us from Christ Jesus.

[Redeemed by Grace]

There hasn't been many an OSAS/NOSAS discussion that has been on this board when this hasn't come up! I've always taken that stand... strange that you've not noticed that before. And no I am not basing that on "he was one of the twelve." Goodness... what I have I just posted in the last four or five post to you on this? I wished there was a scratching my head emoticon thingy because I suppose I am wondering why we are even having the discussion because I don't know how I can be any more clear than what I've written to this point.

<SNIP>

A simple yes would have been acceptable instead of making this a 'me not knowing all about you post…'

So sounds like you are done by being more personal in accusations, then so am I done as well… [Oh and read Revelation 13 and maybe you’ll see what I’m referring to....]

[Walstib]

So... your position is in defending that Judas was at one time saved, and then lost his salvation -- am I correct? And you are basing this on that he was one of the twelve?

There hasn't been many an OSAS/NOSAS discussion that has been on this board when this hasn't come up! I've always taken that stand... strange that you've not noticed that before. And no I am not basing that on "he was one of the twelve." Goodness... what I have I just posted in the last four or five post to you on this? I wished there was a scratching my head emoticon thingy because I suppose I am wondering why we are even having the discussion because I don't know how I can be any more clear than what I've written to this point.

Really I am wondering more and more about how you see salvation PP. I can’t see where Jesus’ death on the cross comes into your views as it seems to me like you teach it has always been the same and always will be.

Judas lived and died before Jesus was resurrected. Do you think people indwelt with the Holy Spirit are judged exactly the same way and at the same time as people before Jesus went home? Why all the talk in scripture about the final judgement day if Judas was saved then not saved… and “could have” been saved again? Do you have any evidence that any OT person was saved while they were still on earth alive in their body? Maybe I have just never seen it myself.

I am not trying to be difficult I just don’t get where you are coming from and want to understand. I see that you believe Judas was saved, that being based on things being done through him and his relationship with Jesus. I don’t see this as solid evidence all things considered.

God used the high priest who was intent on killing Jesus to prophecy that “it would be better for on man to die than the whole nation to perish”. That says something about this logic to me. Is prophecy that much different than a sign or miracle?

And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. (Luk 19:39-40)

If God would use stones the same as the disciples… well I don’t see why God using them for His purpose would automatically place them in a state of “present salvation”.

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. (Joh 16:28-32)

Considering this passage…. When did the disciples “really” believe? Did they all loose their salvation when they abandoned him only to regain it again later?

So please, if you would, explain to me the difference between salvation pre and post resurrection. Do you think there is one? What do you think changed in regards to salvation by Jesus shedding His blood on the cross. Really I want to understand.

Respectfully,

Joe

[ProjectPeter]

A simple yes would have been acceptable instead of making this a 'me not knowing all about you post…'



So sounds like you are done by being more personal in accusations, then so am I done as well…

No... it wouldn't have been. The post in this thread alone have laid out why I believe he was "saved" just as much as the others were and in that I have laid out much more information than "he was part of the 12" as my reasoning.

And if you think that was some sort of "personal accusation" then it is truly a marvel what has been done with language because of the Internet. Goodness! I was simply shocked that you would even ask that after the many discussions you have been a part of on this board and on this very topic to not know that I was taking the stand that Judas was saved and then lost his salvation. Add to that the fact that apparently you missed the majority of the reasoning that I have laid out in this thread alone... seems a tad amazing that you aren't seeing what I am saying. Not that you agree... I know you won't do that. But at least see what I am saying without summing it up as just because he was one of the 12.

[Oh and read Revelation 13 and maybe you’ll see what I’m referring to....]

I knew which passage you were referring too but wondering where you get this "God gives him the power" at from that passage. And then there is the fact that there is nothing that will lead us to believe that the Antichrist or the devil himself will ever do a miracle in Jesus name or through faith in Christ. And that there makes quite the difference. Judas was doing that very thing. Rev 13 allows for no such interpretation.

[ProjectPeter]

Really I am wondering more and more about how you see salvation PP. I can’t see where Jesus’ death on the cross comes into your views as it seems to me like you teach it has always been the same and always will be.

Judas lived and died before Jesus was resurrected. Do you think people indwelt with the Holy Spirit are judged exactly the same way and at the same time as people before Jesus went home? Why all the talk in scripture about the final judgement day if Judas was saved then not saved… and “could have” been saved again? Do you have any evidence that any OT person was saved while they were still on earth alive in their body? Maybe I have just never seen it myself.

I am not trying to be difficult I just don’t get where you are coming from and want to understand. I see that you believe Judas was saved, that being based on things being done through him and his relationship with Jesus. I don’t see this as solid evidence all things considered.

God used the high priest who was intent on killing Jesus to prophecy that “it would be better for on man to die than the whole nation to perish”. That says something about this logic to me. Is prophecy that much different than a sign or miracle?

And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. (Luk 19:39-40)

If God would use stones the same as the disciples… well I don’t see why God using them for His purpose would automatically place them in a state of “present salvation”.

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. (Joh 16:28-32)

Considering this passage…. When did the disciples “really” believe? Did they all loose their salvation when they abandoned him only to regain it again later?

So please, if you would, explain to me the difference between salvation pre and post resurrection. Do you think there is one? What do you think changed in regards to salvation by Jesus shedding His blood on the cross. Really I want to understand.

Respectfully,

Joe

Have you ever heard the saying that "they looked forward to the cross and we look behind to the cross?" Much of that comes from a passage in Peters first letter.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.
3 ¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven -- things into which angels long to look.

Naturally we can find more on this in other letters such as Hebrews where it speaks of the various things being shadows of what was to come or where Paul, in Romans, lays out how it was that even Abraham or David's mercy and thus salvation didn't come from works of the Law but by faith and purely the grace of God.

As to the High Priest prophecying... God used and will continue to use many folks to prophecy. That was done throughout the Scriptures. But the High Priest was not an apostle of Christ. The High Priest was not given to Jesus by the Father. Judas was. Just more as to why I believe he was in fact just as saved as the others.

As to the others state of salvation before and after they all bailed... Scripture speaks for itself there I would think.

Luke 22:31 ¶"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

John 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.
2 And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him,
3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God, and was going back to God,
4 rose from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself about.
5 Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.
6 And so He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, "Lord, do You wash my feet?"
7 Jesus answered and said to him, "What I do you do not realize now, but you shall understand hereafter."
8 Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."
9 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head."
10 Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."

Gotta figure that at this point in time... all of them were clean sure enough, save Judas at this point who would follow what satan put in his heart.

Then go further in John to when Jesus prays for them.

John 17:6 "I manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world; Thine they were, and Thou gavest them to Me, and they have kept Thy word.
7 "Now they have come to know that everything Thou hast given Me is from Thee;
8 for the words which Thou gavest Me I have given to them; and they received them, and truly understood that I came forth from Thee, and they believed that Thou didst send Me.
9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;
10 and all things that are Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
11 "And I am no more in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, the name which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, even as We are.
12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 "But now I come to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14 "I have given them Thy word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not ask Thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth.
18 "As Thou didst send Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.
22 "And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.

I think their "salvation" was rather clear and yes... even before Christ died and rose again. Had they died between then and the resurrection then they would have been with Christ in paradise. Do you really question that about the eleven?

As to what happened at the cross and the difference? The cross was once and for all. Again I would recommend Hebrews because it speaks very clearly of this and in great detail. The Jews had the priest that did the sacrifice for them annually etc. and it was done by imperfect men and had to be done all the time. But Christ, the perfect High Priest, the first and the last... it is finished. Once and for all the need for shed blood was over. Through Christ all men can know the Father. Don't get more wonderful than that.

[Walstib]

Have you ever heard the saying that "they looked forward to the cross and we look behind to the cross?" Much of that comes from a passage in Peters first letter.

Naturally we can find more on this in other letters such as Hebrews where it speaks of the various things being shadows of what was to come or where Paul, in Romans, lays out how it was that even Abraham or David's mercy and thus salvation didn't come from works of the Law but by faith and purely the grace of God. .

I have heard that saying and I see the truth to it as well. I am understanding your view of things better for sure.

Question…

Are you saying that obedience and sin are not counted when considering salvation? Everyone with faith will be saved regardless of what they do while they have faith because by God’s grace they will be forgiven.

As to the High Priest prophesying... God used and will continue to use many folks to prophecy. That was done throughout the Scriptures. But the High Priest was not an apostle of Christ. The High Priest was not given to Jesus by the Father. Judas was.

Just more as to why I believe he was in fact just as saved as the others. I think their "salvation" was rather clear and yes... even before Christ died and rose again. Had they died between then and the resurrection then they would have been with Christ in paradise. Do you really question that about the eleven?

I do understand your logic. The thought that keeps coming to my mind here is that there is a judgment day spoken of in the scriptures. If everyone in pre resurrection times was saved or not saved in a moment by moment fashion what is the purpose of the judgment day? I hope you don’t see that as a silly question, it is blocking agreement with you on this right now for me. Do you understand paradise and heaven to be exactly the same place?

As to what happened at the cross and the difference? The cross was once and for all. Again I would recommend Hebrews because it speaks very clearly of this and in great detail. The Jews had the priest that did the sacrifice for them annually etc. and it was done by imperfect men and had to be done all the time. But Christ, the perfect High Priest, the first and the last... it is finished. Once and for all the need for shed blood was over. Through Christ all men can know the Father. Don't get more wonderful than that.

AMEN and thank you Jesus!! I so love finding full agreement on things. Sometimes I wonder why it can seem so difficult to find the core points of disagreement that lead to the different views on this issue.



Thanks for your patience,

Joe

[ProjectPeter]

I have heard that saying and I see the truth to it as well. I am understanding your view of things better for sure.

Question…

Are you saying that obedience and sin are not counted when considering salvation? Everyone with faith will be saved regardless of what they do while they have faith because by God’s grace they will be forgiven.

With most folks... what would they know to obey? As to their sin... they simply need to believe and turn from that sin. Sin is and should certainly be a part of the gospel message because sin is contrary to the gospel. But no... there are steps that a person is going to go through in their Christian walk. They don't start out mature most certainly. It could vary individual to individual based on a lot of things. But they won't start out mature and won't know most of the things they should obey.

I do understand your logic. The thought that keeps coming to my mind here is that there is a judgment day spoken of in the scriptures. If everyone in pre resurrection times was saved or not saved in a moment by moment fashion what is the purpose of the judgment day? I hope you don’t see that as a silly question, it is blocking agreement with you on this right now for me. Do you understand paradise and heaven to be exactly the same place?

Not sure what you are asking on the first question. The purpose of judgment day would be for judgment. And no... paradise wasn't the same as heaven. But paradise was where the righteous dwelled during that period of time.

AMEN and thank you Jesus!! I so love finding full agreement on things. Sometimes I wonder why it can seem so difficult to find the core points of disagreement that lead to the different views on this issue.



Thanks for your patience,

Joe

No problem. Love discussing Scripture even if it is with folks that disagree.

[Walstib]

With most folks... what would they know to obey? As to their sin... they simply need to believe and turn from that sin. Sin is and should certainly be a part of the gospel message because sin is contrary to the gospel. But no... there are steps that a person is going to go through in their Christian walk. They don't start out mature most certainly. It could vary individual to individual based on a lot of things. But they won't start out mature and won't know most of the things they should obey.

I agree with your points. I am learning more and more everyday the depth of sin and the flesh. Lets try this… what do you see is the difference between a born again believer and an OT saint? Specifically what effects do you see from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in this regard.

Not sure what you are asking on the first question. The purpose of judgment day would be for judgment. And no... paradise wasn't the same as heaven. But paradise was where the righteous dwelled during that period of time.

What I am asking is… if salvation is determined moment by moment and everyone in paradise was automatically going to heaven, and those below to hell, are they not already judged and not in need of “last day judgement”? I am asking who you think will line up for this judgment. Compared to who does not line up. As I understand things this is after the “first resurrection”.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (Joh 12:48)

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-13)

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (Joh 6:29)

It is hard enough for me to form my question let alone expect you to understand it. I am seeing new things myself as I go… I hope you understand now.

Joe

[ProjectPeter]

I agree with your points. I am learning more and more everyday the depth of sin and the flesh. Lets try this… what do you see is the difference between a born again believer and an OT saint? Specifically what effects do you see from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in this regard.

None really. That is why Jesus commented as He did.

John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2 this man came to Him by night, and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.´
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?

Not sure that this would be an easy medium to explain all of this because of space and depth and time constraints on my end for the next couple of weeks. But if you can put it on the back burner until the first of next month then we could start a thread on it and discuss it because it is fascinating to ponder and study out. But fair warning... you will have to remind me!


And yes... the issue of the Spirit does come into play in a major way for the NT saints.

What I am asking is… if salvation is determined moment by moment and everyone in paradise was automatically going to heaven, and those below to hell, are they not already judged and not in need of “last day judgement”? I am asking who you think will line up for this judgment. Compared to who does not line up. As I understand things this is after the “first resurrection”.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (Joh 12:48)

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-13)

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (Joh 6:29)

It is hard enough for me to form my question let alone expect you to understand it. I am seeing new things myself as I go… I hope you understand now.

Joe

It's the way it is I guess because that is how God set it up. I figure there are some things we aren't going to understand and perhaps this is one of those things. We have things like Jesus saying "it will be worse for you than Sodom on that day" etc. So God has judged them hence His destroying them. But we know too that they will face God on that day. Perhaps it is all in the fact that they haven't faced God with this yet and that is appointed to everyone living and dead. I guess we could come up with much but much would be speculation. Ultimately it will come down to the fact that this is the way God does it.

[Walstib]

Not sure that this would be an easy medium to explain all of this because of space and depth and time constraints on my end for the next couple of weeks. But if you can put it on the back burner until the first of next month then we could start a thread on it and discuss it because it is fascinating to ponder and study out. But fair warning... you will have to remind me!

Sounds good but I will be off to Finland for May. I will try to remember as I am interested.

It's the way it is I guess because that is how God set it up. I figure there are some things we aren't going to understand and perhaps this is one of those things. We have things like Jesus saying "it will be worse for you than Sodom on that day" etc. So God has judged them hence His destroying them. But we know too that they will face God on that day. Perhaps it is all in the fact that they haven't faced God with this yet and that is appointed to everyone living and dead. I guess we could come up with much but much would be speculation. Ultimately it will come down to the fact that this is the way God does it.

Fair enough. I am going to take some time on this one myself before getting back into it. Load my brains before I shoot my mouth.

Peace,

Joe