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  • I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election


    So, I now agree with the current unpopular view of such great theologians as:
    St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards.


    The natural (unsaved) man
    -- is born with a sin nature and is totally separated from God.
    -- is at enmity with God, which means he is an enemy of God.
    -- is owed absolutely nothing, nada, zero, etc. by the totally Holy God.
    -- insists on following his fallen nature and naturally chooses this over following God.
    -- considers the gospel to be foolishness:

    “For the message of the cross (the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing,
    but to us who are being saved (through sanctification) it is the power of God.” (1 Cor. 1:18)

    -- exercises his free will and miraculously all of a sudden chooses Jesus and his gospel ???

    The free-will verses
    “All”, “whoever”, “everyone who” believes … CAN be viewed as referring only to God’s elect.
    In the OT, God proves that natural unsaved man cannot (or is not willing to) obey God, etc.
    God chose His "special people" Israel to represent the human race, and they failed miserably.
    [Go ahead and “choose this day to believe and follow God”. If you are able to do this, super.]
    This is why He promised to institute His new/better covenant with His Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.
    In the NT, those who believe have miraculously been given the necessary faith to believe.


    Saving FAITH is a GIFT from God by His GRACE
    Paul was privately trained by the Lord for 17 years (Gal. 1:18, 2:1) prior to starting his ministry.
    “For by grace (undeserved favor) you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
    it is the gift of God, not of works (anything you do), lest anyone should boast.” (Eph. 2:8-9)

    Natural sin-laden, rebellious, etc. man is simply NOT capable of coming up with his own saving faith.

    God has the right to do whatever He desires (whether you like it or not)
    In Romans 9:9-24 Paul explains:
    -- God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born (i.e. before they had done any good or evil).
    -- The choice did not depend on any of God’s foreknowledge (knowledge of the future).
    -- The choice did not depend on the 2 twins:
    “not of works (anything they did) but of Him who calls”.
    -- The choice was strictly: “that the purpose of God according to election might stand”.
    -- God has mercy and compassion on whom He chooses.
    -- Who is chosen does not depend on man who desires it, works for it, etc.
    -- Who is chosen only depends on God who shows mercy to certain ones.
    -- The analogy of the potter and the clay from Isaiah 29:16 and 45:9-13.
    -- God prepares vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor.
    -- God prepares vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
    -- God prepares vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory.
    -- God called the Roman Christians to belong to this latter group.
    It is critical that you understand what Paul is saying (and not saying) in these verses.

    God knows peoples’ hearts and who He wants to have in Heaven
    “the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” (1 Chr. 28:9).
    “I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15)

    A repentant heart is necessary: “… unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3,5)
    The poor (in various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude:
    “He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
    “Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” (James 2:5)


    God predestines and chooses His elect
    “God's elect ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Pet. 1:1-2)
    “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world … having predestined us” (Eph. 1:4-5)
    “And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (in the gospel)” (Acts 13:48)


    God’s guardian angels protect His people until they obtain salvation
    “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for
    those who will (in the future) inherit salvation?” (Hebrews 1:14)


    God does the choosing, not us
    “All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)
    “No one can (has the ability to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
    “You did not choose Me, but I chose you …” (John 15:16)


    Man appears to have the freedom to choose
    God’s plan of salvation: the sinless Messiah came to die on the cross for the sins of the elect,
    and the elect must hear this gospel (good news), believe it, and believe-trust-obey- love Jesus.
    The free-will verses encourage evangelists to take the gospel to the 4 corners of the earth.
    The gospel must be presented to the elect before they can respond to it. And presenting it
    to the non-elect ensures that they cannot claim at the Judgment that they never heard it.


    The Augustinian view of predestination
    Man is totally incapable of being saved on his own, but depends totally on God’s grace.
    Man is not required to make any free-will choice to co-operate with God’s grace.
    God’s choice of His elect has nothing at all to do with their choosing/believing the gospel.
    All humans are destined to be separated from God, but God has chosen to grant mercy to some.

    Note:
    If you claim that God is not merciful enough (or, indeed, if you find any fault at all with God),
    then you are committing blasphemy against Him. So, it's best not to judge God.

  • #2
    Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

    Originally posted by John Zain View Post
    Note:
    If you claim that God is not merciful enough (or, indeed, if you find any fault at all with God),
    then you are committing blasphemy against Him. So, it's best not to judge God.
    Disagreeing with fallible folks, though, hath naught to do with judging God. It really doesn't matter what Augustine, Calvin, Luther, uncle Freds, or Bozo the Clown believe. What matters is what one believes that the Holy Spirit has taught them.

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

      Welcome to the dark side.
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

        Howdy JZ,

        You've discovered the marvelous sovereignty of God. The gentile truth of Proverbs 16:9. Thru man's lenses, he declares wisdom and choice and free will. But given the glasses of God through His word and Spirit's gentile leading, He sees God's hand, and Will and provision. Many men will pray for the salvation of a loved one, yet in the same breath will declare that God doesn't engage until that man reaches for God first. But you my friend have moved from that understanding to something better, and something more accountable.

        God is big... really big, and not many men can reconcile the wisdom of God as you quoted within scriptures above -- that the mind of a man is within the hands of a Sovereign God, yet man is still accountable for sin. For is there any thought God does not know? Or any time that is of a surprise? Yet man will build buildings and roads and things... and before one stone is moved or laid, or one shovel of dirt moved, or one piece of metal formed... all are preplanned beforehand. Each started with a thought, each went to vision and plan, and each follows the plan as it has been made beforehand. If man, being sinful and imperfect, thinks and plans and does.... what about a God who is perfect? Can He not also preplan all that He desires before one word is spoken in His creation, that in His plan, give man his way to think, all the while be under His perfect will?


        And some will argue with God though you me and maybe others, declaring us to be evil Calvinists, and ascribe to us false understandings that God makes a bunch of 'puppets' or 'robots', for they cannot yet see the wisdom with scriptures like Proverb 16, yet ignore many parts of God's control within their lives. We pray to know God's will so we see His glory in us, and not to be in His will and unknown to it.


        Every man created and everyman to be created is destined according to the Will of God, yet we have the beauty to plan think and do, and call it our own.


        So praise God for the wisdom you have seen, use it for His glory and not as a weapon, for it was never meant to divide -- but for self-humiliation, and encouragement, for there is now known that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, and that know we are in the hands of a holy a righteous God, that all things will work together for good to those who love Him.


        For His glory....
        "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
        Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
        ... there are few who find it."


        -----------------------------------------------

        * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

        The New American Standard Bible®,
        Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
        1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
        Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

        Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

          Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
          Welcome to the dark side.
          Howdy BB,

          The dark side of what? Not sure what you mean?
          "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
          Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
          ... there are few who find it."


          -----------------------------------------------

          * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

          The New American Standard Bible®,
          Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
          1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
          Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

          Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

            Originally posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
            Howdy BB,

            The dark side of what? Not sure what you mean?
            It was a joke.
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

              Originally posted by John Zain View Post

              So, I now agree with the current unpopular view of such great theologians as:
              St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards.


              The natural (unsaved) man
              -- is born with a sin nature and is totally separated from God.
              -- is at enmity with God, which means he is an enemy of God.
              -- is owed absolutely nothing, nada, zero, etc. by the totally Holy God.
              -- insists on following his fallen nature and naturally chooses this over following God.
              -- considers the gospel to be foolishness:

              “For the message of the cross (the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing,
              but to us who are being saved (through sanctification) it is the power of God.” (1 Cor. 1:18)

              -- exercises his free will and miraculously all of a sudden chooses Jesus and his gospel ???

              The free-will verses
              “All”, “whoever”, “everyone who” believes … CAN be viewed as referring only to God’s elect.
              In the OT, God proves that natural unsaved man cannot (or is not willing to) obey God, etc.
              God chose His "special people" Israel to represent the human race, and they failed miserably.
              [Go ahead and “choose this day to believe and follow God”. If you are able to do this, super.]
              This is why He promised to institute His new/better covenant with His Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.
              In the NT, those who believe have miraculously been given the necessary faith to believe.


              Saving FAITH is a GIFT from God by His GRACE
              Paul was privately trained by the Lord for 17 years (Gal. 1:18, 2:1) prior to starting his ministry.
              “For by grace (undeserved favor) you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
              it is the gift of God, not of works (anything you do), lest anyone should boast.” (Eph. 2:8-9)

              Natural sin-laden, rebellious, etc. man is simply NOT capable of coming up with his own saving faith.

              God has the right to do whatever He desires (whether you like it or not)
              In Romans 9:9-24 Paul explains:
              -- God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born (i.e. before they had done any good or evil).
              -- The choice did not depend on any of God’s foreknowledge (knowledge of the future).
              -- The choice did not depend on the 2 twins:
              “not of works (anything they did) but of Him who calls”.
              -- The choice was strictly: “that the purpose of God according to election might stand”.
              -- God has mercy and compassion on whom He chooses.
              -- Who is chosen does not depend on man who desires it, works for it, etc.
              -- Who is chosen only depends on God who shows mercy to certain ones.
              -- The analogy of the potter and the clay from Isaiah 29:16 and 45:9-13.
              -- God prepares vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor.
              -- God prepares vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
              -- God prepares vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory.
              -- God called the Roman Christians to belong to this latter group.
              It is critical that you understand what Paul is saying (and not saying) in these verses.

              God knows peoples’ hearts and who He wants to have in Heaven
              “the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” (1 Chr. 28:9).
              “I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15)

              A repentant heart is necessary: “… unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3,5)
              The poor (in various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude:
              “He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
              “Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” (James 2:5)


              God predestines and chooses His elect
              “God's elect ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Pet. 1:1-2)
              “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world … having predestined us” (Eph. 1:4-5)
              “And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (in the gospel)” (Acts 13:48)


              God’s guardian angels protect His people until they obtain salvation
              “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for
              those who will (in the future) inherit salvation?” (Hebrews 1:14)


              God does the choosing, not us
              “All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)
              “No one can (has the ability to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
              “You did not choose Me, but I chose you …” (John 15:16)


              Man appears to have the freedom to choose
              God’s plan of salvation: the sinless Messiah came to die on the cross for the sins of the elect,
              and the elect must hear this gospel (good news), believe it, and believe-trust-obey- love Jesus.
              The free-will verses encourage evangelists to take the gospel to the 4 corners of the earth.
              The gospel must be presented to the elect before they can respond to it. And presenting it
              to the non-elect ensures that they cannot claim at the Judgment that they never heard it.


              The Augustinian view of predestination
              Man is totally incapable of being saved on his own, but depends totally on God’s grace.
              Man is not required to make any free-will choice to co-operate with God’s grace.
              God’s choice of His elect has nothing at all to do with their choosing/believing the gospel.
              All humans are destined to be separated from God, but God has chosen to grant mercy to some.

              Note:
              If you claim that God is not merciful enough (or, indeed, if you find any fault at all with God),
              then you are committing blasphemy against Him. So, it's best not to judge God.

              I'm sory...........

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

                Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                I'm sorry...........
                ....................
                Last edited by Watchman; Jan 23rd 2012, 02:02 AM. Reason: added an 'r' to Butch5's post....just can't help myself
                Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

                  Originally posted by BrckBrln View Post
                  It was a joke.
                  That's what I thought what you meant....

                  But it's actually not the dark side, eh?
                  "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
                  Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
                  ... there are few who find it."


                  -----------------------------------------------

                  * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

                  The New American Standard Bible®,
                  Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
                  1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
                  Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

                  Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

                    Originally posted by John Zain
                    If you claim that God is not merciful enough (or, indeed, if you find any fault at all with God),
                    then you are committing blasphemy against Him. So, it's best not to judge God.
                    No one is committing 'blasphemy' against God if they believe that the 'Augustinian view of predestination election' makes God unmerciful. This is a massive cop-out used to guilt people who disagree with you into agreeing with you. (And, for some reason, in the 'predestination' debate, my experience is that I have only ever see Augustinian/Calvinists pull this off.)
                    To This Day

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

                      Originally posted by John Zain View Post

                      So, I now agree with the current unpopular view of such great theologians as:
                      St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards.


                      The natural (unsaved) man
                      -- is born with a sin nature and is totally separated from God.
                      -- is at enmity with God, which means he is an enemy of God.
                      -- is owed absolutely nothing, nada, zero, etc. by the totally Holy God.
                      -- insists on following his fallen nature and naturally chooses this over following God.
                      -- considers the gospel to be foolishness:

                      “For the message of the cross (the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing,
                      but to us who are being saved (through sanctification) it is the power of God.” (1 Cor. 1:18)

                      -- exercises his free will and miraculously all of a sudden chooses Jesus and his gospel ???

                      The free-will verses
                      “All”, “whoever”, “everyone who” believes … CAN be viewed as referring only to God’s elect.
                      In the OT, God proves that natural unsaved man cannot (or is not willing to) obey God, etc.
                      God chose His "special people" Israel to represent the human race, and they failed miserably.
                      [Go ahead and “choose this day to believe and follow God”. If you are able to do this, super.]
                      This is why He promised to institute His new/better covenant with His Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.
                      In the NT, those who believe have miraculously been given the necessary faith to believe.


                      Saving FAITH is a GIFT from God by His GRACE
                      Paul was privately trained by the Lord for 17 years (Gal. 1:18, 2:1) prior to starting his ministry.
                      “For by grace (undeserved favor) you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
                      it is the gift of God, not of works (anything you do), lest anyone should boast.” (Eph. 2:8-9)

                      Natural sin-laden, rebellious, etc. man is simply NOT capable of coming up with his own saving faith.

                      God has the right to do whatever He desires (whether you like it or not)
                      In Romans 9:9-24 Paul explains:
                      -- God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born (i.e. before they had done any good or evil).
                      -- The choice did not depend on any of God’s foreknowledge (knowledge of the future).
                      -- The choice did not depend on the 2 twins:
                      “not of works (anything they did) but of Him who calls”.
                      -- The choice was strictly: “that the purpose of God according to election might stand”.
                      -- God has mercy and compassion on whom He chooses.
                      -- Who is chosen does not depend on man who desires it, works for it, etc.
                      -- Who is chosen only depends on God who shows mercy to certain ones.
                      -- The analogy of the potter and the clay from Isaiah 29:16 and 45:9-13.
                      -- God prepares vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor.
                      -- God prepares vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
                      -- God prepares vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory.
                      -- God called the Roman Christians to belong to this latter group.
                      It is critical that you understand what Paul is saying (and not saying) in these verses.

                      God knows peoples’ hearts and who He wants to have in Heaven
                      “the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” (1 Chr. 28:9).
                      “I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15)

                      A repentant heart is necessary: “… unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3,5)
                      The poor (in various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude:
                      “He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
                      “Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” (James 2:5)


                      God predestines and chooses His elect
                      “God's elect ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Pet. 1:1-2)
                      “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world … having predestined us” (Eph. 1:4-5)
                      “And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (in the gospel)” (Acts 13:48)


                      God’s guardian angels protect His people until they obtain salvation
                      “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for
                      those who will (in the future) inherit salvation?” (Hebrews 1:14)


                      God does the choosing, not us
                      “All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)
                      “No one can (has the ability to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
                      “You did not choose Me, but I chose you …” (John 15:16)


                      Man appears to have the freedom to choose
                      God’s plan of salvation: the sinless Messiah came to die on the cross for the sins of the elect,
                      and the elect must hear this gospel (good news), believe it, and believe-trust-obey- love Jesus.
                      The free-will verses encourage evangelists to take the gospel to the 4 corners of the earth.
                      The gospel must be presented to the elect before they can respond to it. And presenting it
                      to the non-elect ensures that they cannot claim at the Judgment that they never heard it.


                      The Augustinian view of predestination
                      Man is totally incapable of being saved on his own, but depends totally on God’s grace.
                      Man is not required to make any free-will choice to co-operate with God’s grace.
                      God’s choice of His elect has nothing at all to do with their choosing/believing the gospel.
                      All humans are destined to be separated from God, but God has chosen to grant mercy to some.

                      Note:
                      If you claim that God is not merciful enough (or, indeed, if you find any fault at all with God),
                      then you are committing blasphemy against Him. So, it's best not to judge God.
                      This is one of those topics that is good to argue about, get mad about, split churches over, and divide believers.
                      Both Calvinists and Arminians believe you should witness to everyone. Arminians believe that anyone can be saved and Calvinists do not believe that we know who "the elect" are and who they are not. Having that in mind, who really cares which doctrine is correct?
                      I do not know a pure Calvinist or a pure Arminian. EVERYONE I know holds elements of both doctorinal systems.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

                        Exactly, Reynolds! I've seen folks get fighting mad over this topic...which is why I simply laugh it off. The Calvinist pov is the most insecure one of which I've ever heard!

                        W
                        Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

                          Atually, if there is an "ism" after your belief it's not Biblical.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

                            Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                            Atually, if there is an "ism" after your belief it's not Biblical.
                            Which is why I don't follow Butchism.
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: I now agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

                              Originally posted by Butch5
                              Atually, if there is an "ism" after your belief it's not Biblical.
                              '-isms' are just one-word descriptors used to summarize 'I believe.......' sentences.
                              To This Day

                              Comment

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