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  • Davids throne/Millenial Reign of Christ

    This may be a little unusual but because I was afraid I had derailed the OP in "does the binding of Satan mean the elimination of sin" thread I started this one. I copied several post over here and deleted my long post in the other thread. Sorry folksl, I should have dont this to start with.

    I started with John146's post

    QD
    No that isnt what I meant. Let me try and put it this way. If I buy and old house and remodel it, it is the same house but improved, even to the point of being new in appearance and functionality. Where as if I build a new house, I have a completly new home.
    So in Isaiah, the earth will not be New as is given in Rev. The New in Revelation isnt going to be an ongoing process, I dont believe that and I guess I didnt come across very clear. I am on a roll with being unclear lately.
    But in Isaiah,the earth in comparison to what we are living on now, the earth will be much better. It will be under the rule of Christ and all will be much much better.


    John146
    How could it be "much better' when people would still have their sinful fleshly natures? How exactly do you see Jesus keeping mankind's sinful fleshly natures in check in the supposed future millenium? I have one more question that I have asked other premillenialists and it gets unanswered every time. Maybe you will be the first to answer it. Can you tell me how there could be no crying (Isaiah 65:19) on the new earth that is described in Isaiah 65:17-25 if there is also death? Would people not cry over someone's death anymore? I'm assuming that you read Isaiah 65:20 literally and conclude that there would be death on the new earth that is described in Isaiah 65.


    QD
    I am not saying Christ isnt ruling now from heaven, He of course is always King. I just mean that He will rule like??? I'm thinking of how to put it. His physical presence will be here like the president say. He will rule and be on the throne of David. He will of course still be the same resurrected Savior, but His presence will be evident to the physical world. He is already in His rightful place as the Son of God and our Lord, King and Savior, during the Millenium, He will also take His rightfull place as heir to the throne of David in Jerusalem.

    John146
    Jesus is already sitting on the throne of David. Jesus has been sitting on the throne of David since His resurrection and subsequent ascension to the right hand of the Father. Please read the following:

    29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
    34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. - Acts 2:29-36

    Jesus is the King on David's throne. This passage says that God swore an oath to David that someone in his lineage would one day sit on his (David's) throne. And that, of course, is Christ. Notice what the next verse tells us: that he (David) seeing this before (because he was a prophet) spake of the resurrection of Christ. So, Peter here is explaining that the resurrection of Christ and His subsequent ascension to the right hand of the Father was equivalent to Christ sitting on David's throne.



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  • #2
    (1 of 3 / on Davids throne)
    Hi john146,
    This got longer than I intended, as usual, so I appologize. But one thing just naturally leads to another. I tried to backup with scripture the following: the no more tears; Christ will reign upon Davids throne, and he will do it during the time of the millenium; God is not finished with His purpose for Israel; the remnant and the nation of ethnic Israel; that theses prophecies are not fulfilled in the Church, people wont be “perfect”

    NO MORE TEARS? PERFECT PEOPLE?

    john146
    How could it be "much better' when people would still have their sinful fleshly natures? How exactly do you see Jesus keeping mankind's sinful fleshly natures in check in the supposed future millenium?

    People during the millenium will still have the choice to rebel or be disobedient. They also just flat out wont be perfect. And this question takes us to the ever debated sacrifices in the millenium that Ezekiel seems to be teaching, and that throws you and I as believers in the finished work of Christ into complete shock. In studying I have found this said of the Holy Spirit and believers.

    Romans 15:16…that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

    first lets look at atone #3722 “ kaphar”: to cover over, sin, by legal rites
    Christ atoned for our sins, we are covered by Christ, God does not see our sins, He sees His Sons atonement of us. This applies to all, who have in faith, believed God. Christ atoning for our sins is from the beginning to the end and from the depths to the heights, that He might fill all things.
    Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things
    then at sanctify #6942 “qadash”: to consecrated, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy be separate.
    Romans says very clearly, our offering, the things we do in service, by faith for our God, are “sanctified” by the Holy Spirit. Through the Holy Spirit, our imperfect offerings are sanctified.

    The possibility that the sacrifices spoken of in Ezekiel, that throw us all for a loop as believers are for the sanctification of the offerings to God. At this point in my post this may seem unreasonalbe to you, but there is support in scripture that, 1) as far as the ministry of the Holy Spirit, His ministry changed, somehow, at Pentecost, and (2) God has not yet completed His purpose with the nation of Israel.

    I have one more question that I have asked other premillenialists and it gets unanswered every time. Maybe you will be the first to answer it. Can you tell me how there could be no crying (Isaiah 65:19) on the new earth that is described in Isaiah 65:17-25 if there is also death?

    Jeremiah 31 11- 14 (redeemed Israel living “satified” with the goodness of God)
    -16 “ Refrain your voice from weeping, And your eyes from tears 17 “There is hope in your future…your children shall come back from the land of the enemy 20…For the child shall die one hungred years old”…

    This is not saying no more tears, it is saying Jerusalem will no longer be a place of weeping, “the voice of weeping” and is speaking of the promises they did not realize yet because of their rebellion and rejection of their promised Messiah. They are in a time of punishment but the time of great blessing is to be just as God has purposed. God has promised their latter glory will be greater than their former Ezekiel 36:10-12

    Israel realizes the prophecies reguarding no more exile in gentile nations, and no more being persecuted, they have realized the promise of their inheritance reguarding their land and them possesing their land. And the “no more tears” is not related to the glorious eternity the faithful will enjoy, but “no more tears” is in relation to their past exile and persecution, both of which are a thing of the past, forever.

    The thought I am trying to convey is that, this of Isaiah is not speaking of the same event, like the newly remodeled house I used in an earlier post, when you are done, you better have taken some photos because it is so difficult to remember the old, even though it is the remodeled old. In Rev, there is no remodeled old, the old is torn down and gone, and an entire new house is there.

    Would people not cry over someone's death anymore? I'm assuming that you read Isaiah 65:20 literally and conclude that there would be death on the new earth that is described in Isaiah 65.

    As far as death goes itself, I don’t think no more tears is used in that context, but the contexted being that Israel will no longer be a nation of weeping. Also, in v 20 it says “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days…
    The millenial will be a great time like we have never experienced on the earth, a time of blessing under the rule of Christ Himself as King in Jerusalem on the throne of David. (please see further on down in my post)


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    • #3
      (part 2 of 3 / on Davids throne)

      CHRIST ON THE THRONE OF DAVID IN THE MILLENIAL REIGN

      john146
      Jesus is already sitting on the throne of David. Jesus has been sitting on the throne of David since His resurrection and subsequent ascension to the right hand of the Father. Please read the following:

      29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

      30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
      31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
      32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
      33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
      34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
      35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. - Acts 2:29-36

      Jesus is the King on David's throne. This passage says that God swore an oath to David that someone in his lineage would one day sit on his (David's) throne. And that, of course, is Christ. Notice what the next verse tells us: that he (David) seeing this before (because he was a prophet) spake of the resurrection of Christ. So, Peter here is explaining that the resurrection of Christ and His subsequent ascension to the right hand of the Father was equivalent to Christ sitting on David's throne
      .


      The tabernacle of David is not at the right hand of God in heaven, and that is where Christ is at present.

      Isaiah 16:5 In mercy the throne will be extablished; and One (Christ) will sit on it in truth, in the *tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness

      The word tabernacle here caught my attention, we know Christ will not be in Davids body so I did some looking into the word “tabernacle” to see what I would find, and hopefully learn.
      Easton’s Dictionary listed these things
      -a portable shrine, the human body, sacred tent

      so I eliminated David’s body, I am not even going there, I don’t think you would either
      0168 ‘ohel- tent is what is in the literal Bible that I have says and
      the Hebrew Lexicon has
      1) nomad’s tent, and thus symbolic of wilderness life, transience
      2)dwelling, home, habitation
      3)the sacred tent of Jehovah (the tabernacle)

      Some further backup from Jeremiah 30 that God fully intends to restore ethnic Israel and therefore Christ sitting on the throne of David as Israel expected Him to do and overlooking the work of His First Advent

      We can gain these thing from Jeremiah 30
      1) These things are being spoken to Israel and Jacob (and they are the one in the same) These things are being spoken to the nation of Israel and the nations of the Geniles
      v God is speaking to the country that mistreated Israel, not the individual people of the country. As individuals you and I as Christians we don’t want Israel treated unfairly much less masacared, so it is difficult for us to comprehend, but as a whole, the leaders, which means the country, God says he will v11”make a full end”.(also to the Gentile nations v 16 “all those who devour you will be devoured)Since God is speaking to “nations” not individuals, He is doing the same thing with Israel, he isnt speaking to individual Jews, He is speaking in reguards to the nation. Just as He is speaking to the leaders of the Gentile nations as a whole, He is speaking to Jewish leaders as a whole, He is speaking to the nation(s) as a whold. Just like individuals were saved of the Jews, but the leaders of the Israel nation rejected Christ. It isnt the individual spoken to in this verse it is the nation(s)The citizens of the nation or nations, are of course, effected by this;, and will as individuals be partakers the consequences of this prophecy to the nations.

      2) it is the time of *Jacobs trouble and he (Israel) shall be delivered, in the end God will have mercy on Israel as a nation. v20” their congregation shall be established before Me;”
      v the remnant- just the fact that He is speaking to the “nation” requires that a remnant of faithful to God are preserved Jer 31:7 “O LORD, save Your People, The remnant of Israel!” and v10 makes it clear this also is to the nation of Israel “He who scattered Israel will gather him” and that the nation of Israel will be redeemed( which would include the citizens of the ethnic nation of Israel) v11 “ For the LORD has redeemed Jacob” Jeremiah 31: 10 is very clear about this being Israel, not applying to the Church “He who scattered Israel will gather him”

      3)They(Jacob) will serve the LORD their God, and David their King-who will be raised up for them
      v In context “them” is the nation of Israel-Jacob. Because this “David” is raised up “for them” it indicates David and not Christ, Christ was their promised Messiah and He was raised up for them. He was raised up to redeem ,them, Gentiles, all of life, and for salvation for all men. Within the context of salvation Christ was not raised up for just them.

      4) When Jacob returns v10 “he will have rest and quietv11 “all of nations where I have scattered you
      v God has never scattered the Church, it is clear this was not prophecy for the Church nor is it fulfilled
      by the Church
      v Israel has yet to return and live in peace and quiet, obedience is a requirement for them to possess
      the land under these circumstances and for them to posses the full amount of land they inherited.

      5) God will not make a complete end of them v 11

      6) They are suffering some severe punishment v 11- 15

      Then this prophecy say a mouthfull to us anyway “In the latter days you will consider it”

      Jeremiah 30:8in that day, ‘ declares the LORD Almighty, I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them 9 Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their King whom I will raise up for them.
      And reading on through Jeremiah, we find that, not only were the Jews first offered salvation, they are suffering punishment for their ancestors rejection of their promised Messiah.
      Ezekiel 34:23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them I the LORD have spoken. 25. “’ I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of wild beasts so that they may live in the desert and sleep in the forests in safety.

      This could be Christ, but the language seems to indicate David himself, not his heir, or Son of David, and at that point Christ will not be a prince among them but Christ is King.


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      • #4
        (3 of 3 / on Davids throne)
        CURRENT HISTORY WE CAN SEE AND THEREFORE KNOW THE FUTURE IS ALSO AS CERTAIN

        This isnt necessarily about Christ being on Davids throne but to me it is confirmation that God has not forgotten His ethnic Israel. It does support Him having people there in physical bodies
        Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples;

        we can turn on the news to see the above is happening before our eyes, the fate of the “nations” in the following verses is just a certain.

        all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 4 In that day,” says the LORD, “I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.’ 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place—Jerusalem.

        and also just as certain, God will accomplish the rest, He will save His remnant and then with them, the nation of ethnic Israel will “look on Me whom they pierced”
        7 “The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced.




        WHAT REMNANT & WHERE WOULD IT COME FROM
        this isnt really about the millenium but I believe it does show that God still has a purpose involving ethnic Israel, He will preserve a remnant that will survive to live in the millenial reign.

        Revelation 7:2 Then I saw another angel ascending form the east, having the seal of the living God…3…till we have sealed the servants of our God

        Since we as believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13;4:30), plus angels are “sealing”, the 144 thousand, whatever that means, to the 144 thousand the fact remains that the angels did not seal us with the Holy Spirit, He was sent from the Father. (Acts 2:33)It seems to mean that these of Israel will be the ones who will possess the land of their (Israels) inheritance. These of the 144 thousand of the tribes of Israel (Rev 7)will be the ones who are also protected (Rev 12). They will at that time be obedient (excepting Christ) and therefore the condition for possessing the land will be met. They will have turned their hearts back to their God through Christ.

        AND WHY WOULD THIS BE SOMETHING GOD WOULD DO ??
        I would not attempt as to guess why, so in searching scripture, this is what I found for a reason why God would restore Israel, and see His purpose for them to fulfillment, and that there is no way the Church has realized the promieses given to Israel.

        The nations mock Israel, the ethnic nation of Israel, and that is who this is spoken to:

        Ezekiel 22 “Therefore, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “ I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 …I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations,…and the nations shall know that I am the LORD…when I am hallowed in your before their eyes.”

        This is not spoken to the Body of Christ, not that we have any room for bragging as “christians” have certainly been guilty of shaming their precious Savior. I know I have with my disobedience over the time of my years.


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        • #5
          FYI
          This is john146 in response, I also copied it, but deleted none of his post in the other thread

          john146
          The Spirit of grace and supplication was already poured out on the inhabitants of Jeruslaem at Pentecost. That whole passage has to do with the first coming of Christ and the days immediately following. The fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10 is found here:

          34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
          35And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
          36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. - John 19:34-37

          Can you give me your interpretation of Acts 2:29-36? You didn't make any specific comments on it. If you disagree with my interpretation that Christ sitting on David's throne had to do with His resurrection and ascension to the throne then what do you think it is saying?


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          • #6
            when satan is binded there is no more sin in the new earth untill the 1000 years is up and the evil one returns. When Christ walked this earth he opened the seven seals and over came satan. my guess is the samething will happen to the people in the new earth you start to comprhend the seven seals and when the 1000 years is up the evil one returns. The people in the new earth have to over come satan or not fall away from God usally God sends a prophet to deal with satan.

            Quiet dove wow you wrote a book its gonna take along time to go over this topic

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            • #7
              Okay, QD, so please tell us your interpretation of Acts 2:29-36.

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              • #8
                when satan is binded there is no more sin in the new earth untill the 1000 years is up and the evil one returns. When Christ walked this earth he opened the seven seals and over came satan. my guess is the samething will happen to the people in the new earth you start to comprhend the seven seals and when the 1000 years is up the evil one returns. The people in the new earth have to over come satan or not fall away from God usally God sends a prophet to deal with satan.
                there is more than a few problems with this view. first it makes satan the cause of all sin. but scripture tells us it is our own corrupt nature and wicked hearts that is the source of our sin. even in the begining eve was deceived but adam was not. he sinned knowingly and willfully. also the scriptures do not present a sinless milllennium, those nations that do not obey God and come to zion to worship will be cursed for the sin of disobedience.

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                • #9
                  sorry Tolapc - I am working on not doing that. I know I would prefer to read a shorter post myself


                  And I havnt forgotten John146 I am working on it now


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by John146 View Post
                    Okay, QD, so please tell us your interpretation of Acts 2:29-36.
                    The first posts thoroughly explain those passages in the verfy same context that I have told you and other preterists before. Again, your refusal to accept certain evidence as evidence is not the lack of evidfence, but the lack of understanding on your part.

                    Again, the short version. Peter is telling Israel that the one whom David foretold about not staying in the grave, but being resurrected, in order to rule on his throne, is what QD and myslef have told you. Again, it's is frustrating that a conversation can not occur while one clings to their doctrines so severely without even considering the weight of the evidence that is presented.

                    For those who want to use the "glass houses" saying, consider this. For every piece of evidence that was presented to debunk Post-trib Premillennialism, I have used many scriptures, even some of your own, to refute your theories. So, save yourselves the trouble of saying that I need to practice what I preach, bcause I have.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Toolapc View Post
                      when satan is binded there is no more sin in the new earth untill the 1000 years is up and the evil one returns. When Christ walked this earth he opened the seven seals and over came satan. my guess is the samething will happen to the people in the new earth you start to comprhend the seven seals and when the 1000 years is up the evil one returns. The people in the new earth have to over come satan or not fall away from God usally God sends a prophet to deal with satan.

                      Quiet dove wow you wrote a book its gonna take along time to go over this topic
                      In a roundaboutway, I have to disagree. Here is why.

                      Isaiah 65 gives a description of what will happen during Christ's reign on this earth. In that passage, the inhabitants of Jerusalem will be at peace, the one thing it has not been since 63 AD. Those who die at age 100 would be considered cursed. Death, according to Isaiah 65:20, is present in the Millennium. If death is present, then sin is present as well, since the wages of sin is death.

                      The seven seals? While Christ was on earth? Where is the evidence for this, and let me tell you, speculation is not going to cut it in answering this question. Jesus was long since gone back to the Father by the time even the seven seals were even first talked about. So, there is no roundabout way of saying that the modified seven seals doctrine is still just as false as the original seven seals doctrine.

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                      • #12
                        QD,

                        Do you believe that David's throne is a physical throne? I've never been able to find one Scripture describing a physical throne of David.

                        God promised David that his son Solomon would sit on the throne of David:

                        1 Kings 5:5 And, behold, I purpose to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God, as the LORD spake unto David my father, saying, Thy son, whom I will set upon thy throne in thy room, he shall build an house unto my name.

                        But Solomon built his own throne to sit upon and reign from:

                        1 Kings 7:7 Then he made a porch for the throne where he might judge, even the porch of judgment: and it was covered with cedar from one side of the floor to the other.

                        1 Kings 10:18 Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold.

                        1 Kings 10:19 The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays.

                        Shirley

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                        • #13
                          john146
                          Okay, QD, so please tell us your interpretation of Acts 2:29-36.
                          When was Davids throne at the right hand of God? Acts makes a point to say that David never acsended to heaven


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                          • #14
                            Do you believe that David's throne is a physical throne? I've never been able to find one Scripture describing a physical throne of David.
                            2 Samuel 3:10 To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba.

                            It is clear that the throne of David was established over Israel and over Judah,

                            1 Kings 2:12 Then Solomon sat on the throne of his father David;…


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Toolapc View Post
                              when satan is binded there is no more sin in the new earth untill the 1000 years is up and the evil one returns.
                              When Satan is bound (in the pit) there is no more physical sin in the Millennium, or political sin or religious sin, however there is still going to be sin. After all, after the 1000 years, satan is released and many follow him. That means that they must be sinful. They will be destroyed. They are full of sin, obviously.

                              Originally posted by Toolapc View Post
                              When Christ walked this earth he opened the seven seals and over came satan.
                              Christ never even gave John the visions about the 7 seals until way after Christ's Crucifixion. A seal is UNDERSTANDING the events. It is not the action.

                              Originally posted by Toolapc View Post
                              my guess is the samething will happen to the people in the new earth you start to comprhend the seven seals and when the 1000 years is up the evil one returns.
                              OK, do you think that we are in the Millennium now? Is this the 1000 years? Your quote is confusing to me.

                              Originally posted by Toolapc View Post
                              The people in the new earth have to over come satan or not fall away from God usally God sends a prophet to deal with satan.
                              Christ will be on the the earth in The Millennium days. His election are the prophets. The dead in Christ are the prophets. They will already be here walking the earth throughout the whole Millennium.
                              The New Earth does not exist until After the Millennium, when the Father returns with New Jerusalem. In the New Earth, no one will ever have to overcome Satan, for he will not exist. Satan is to be destroyed before the New Earth comes to be.
                              In His service
                              c



                              7th trump gathering, not before!

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