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Why did Satan leave heaven?

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  • #46
    That was VERY interesting Hugh! Thank you! I have been told I am not supposed to talk to you guys for 8 days so I am going to make this my last reply until then because I'm a good girl and want to follow the rules. I still can't quite understand how my posts are getting to you since I assume I am supposed to be blocked from speaking, but I am not very computer literate. I appreciate that info on the morning star and I will be back when I am allowed.
    I got onto a board that was men only and somehow they zapped me a message ( computers still amaze and scare me). They probably freaked, as I would have, I guess, at a man named paintdiva. I was horrified at the time but now I can't stop giggling about it. It gives me a mental picture of a bunch of guys grabbing for their towels like I accidentally walked into the mens locker room.
    Anyway, I will use the time until I'm allowed to chat to try to find the rule book so as not to offend again. Thanks! I will be back with so MANY biblical questions you may wish you never met me!

    Comment


    • #47
      Souled Out, You had this verse in your post.
      Jesus said in John 8:38 “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

      According to Vincent Word Studies, which is part of the E-Sword that I downloaded due to posts earlier in this thread, The word beginning in this verse refers to the begining of the human race. Also the word murderer refers to Satan being the author of death to the human race. Hense the begining of death in the Garden of Eden. It does not refer to him before being cast out. At least that is what I am getting out of this.

      hugh

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      • #48
        I will still be here then hopefully. The guys must not be quite as understanding as the ladies were with me or maybe you posted more than once. Will look for you after 8 days then. Take care
        hugh

        Comment


        • #49
          Hey paintdiva!

          I just wanted to clarify for you (and Hugh ) in case you haven't read our response yet, that you are in no way in trouble or restricted at all. Mistakes happen, and as long as they are honest mistakes it isn't a big deal. (The guys here are very understanding too, as long as it doesn't become a repetitive mistake, which I know it won't in your case. )

          The 8 days refers to the PM system only...you have full posting priveleges on the forum....well, except for Solomon's Porch, of course.

          Comment


          • #50
            I am understanding your view better for sure. I also see your connection with a spiritual meaning in Ezekiel relating to man and the fall and thanks for pointing that out as I was yet to see it.
            Thank you for listening.

            That said I still right now see relation to the enemy as well. A big connection to him and the fall of man, a shadow within a shadow if you will.
            I can appreciate that and I can definitely see a fall of the enemy in Ezekiel, but I see his fall quite as Jesus saw it as the 70 returned from preaching in Acts. So, I don’t see this fall as a fall from grace because Scripture nevers says that he ever had grace.

            But I can see some type of fall.

            I give you also that fussing about what word is used in the original Hebrew does not “prove” anything and will not dwell on that point. So maybe leaving that behind us right now I am interested in discussing the free will aspect of this after reading your posts.

            Ahh, discussing free-will is always fun.

            I see your point about whether it would be possible to rebel from inside heaven… at least I think I do. There are a couple things that came to mind I would ask you.

            Shallmortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: (Job 4:17-18)

            And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jud 1:6)

            To me these scriptures are saying; One, that the angels had folly, if they were made evil why would they be charged with it? Second the “kept not” and “left their” parts of the second verse to me show a will. Why would you say this is not so?
            “Angel” simply means messenger and I see that there are three types of angels in Scripture - human messengers, celestial messengers, and the Christophany (The Angel of the Lord) in the OT, so context determines which one is in view.

            I believe that:

            Angel – celestial beings (do not fall)
            Angel – human messengers that speak for God (can and do fall)
            Angel - Christophany (Christ)

            So IMO, and I believe Scripture supports this, that fallen angels are humans, called men (messengers) of God who fall from grace, and that fallen angels do not reference the celestial beings that are always subject to the Face of God.

            For example, Haggai, David and John the Baptist were called messengers or "angels" of the Lord because they spoke for Him (Haggai 1:13, 1 Samuel 29:9, Malachi 3:1).

            In Revelation 19:10 the apostle John fell at the feet of an angel to worship him, and the angel said, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!"
            John later echoes this idea when he speaks of "The measure of a man, that is of an angel" in Revelation 21:17.

            Third one and the biggest one for me…

            Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1Co 6:3)

            Why would we judge angels if they were just doing their job?

            In my view, the angels that we will judge are human messengers.
            Thanks,

            Joe

            Thank you.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Harrison Potter View Post
              Souled Out, You had this verse in your post.
              Jesus said in John 8:38 “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

              According to Vincent Word Studies, which is part of the E-Sword that I downloaded due to posts earlier in this thread, The word beginning in this verse refers to the begining of the human race. Also the word murderer refers to Satan being the author of death to the human race. Hense the begining of death in the Garden of Eden. It does not refer to him before being cast out. At least that is what I am getting out of this.

              hugh
              Here is the actual word "beginning" that is being used in that passage.

              Strong's Number: 746 a¹rxh/
              Original Word Word Origin
              a¹rxh/ from (756)
              Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
              Arche ar-khay'
              Parts of Speech TDNT
              Noun Feminine 1:479,81
              Definition

              1.beginning, origin
              2.the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
              3.that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
              4.the extremity of a thing
              a.of the corners of a sail
              5.the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
              a.of angels and demons

              Translated Words


              KJV (58) - beginning, 40; corner, 2; first, 2; misc, 6; principality, 8;

              NAS (55) - beginning, 38; corners, 2; domain, 1; elementary, 1; first, 1; first preaching, 1; principalities, 1; rule, 4; rulers, 6;

              Since Jesus is talking about satan's origin, I don't see the basis of his conclusion. We're never told that satan existed before man. There just aren't any scriptures to attest to this. IMO its just speculative and reading beyond what scripture actually says.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Souled Out View Post
                In my view, the angels that we will judge are human messengers.
                I agree that there are messengers of this world and messengers not of this world. Jesus being called an angel I have not looked into much so maybe I should read that other thread hear some but this is not really on focus to our discussion. Still I am not finding agreement with your conclusion for the verse from Corinthians.

                Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (1Co 5:10-13)

                Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (1Co 6:1-4)

                I did just put one verse down but did not do so without assuming it would be taken in it’s full context. Paul teaches that it is proper to judge the sin on a person. Both believers and non believers. He specifies that the saints will judge the world. A earthly messenger of God would be of this world. He then goes on to compare it to angels to show the depth of what the children of God will become. They are not of this life as shown in his comparison. “this life” referring to “of this world”.

                Even with the definitions you give of the different kinds of angels I don’t see it fitting the context of the verse. How would you say that my reasoning here in this passage is wrong?

                Peace,

                Joe

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Todd Cornwell View Post
                  Was Satan an angel?and if so why did he decide to leave heaven?
                  Satan didnt decide to leave heaven and GOD didnt kill satan. Instead GOD threw satan out of heaven for being the creator of Darkness. satan in the bible is also known as the LORDs tempest meaning God has power over satan.

                  IN heaven there is no killing and there is no darkness satan created these things and we are bound to this darkness because we have a corruptible body that is not Christ like. human kind is above all other creations because we have to suffer with a corruptible body unlike the angels.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by writergirl View Post
                    Hey paintdiva!

                    I just wanted to clarify for you (and Hugh ) in case you haven't read our response yet, that you are in no way in trouble or restricted at all. Mistakes happen, and as long as they are honest mistakes it isn't a big deal. (The guys here are very understanding too, as long as it doesn't become a repetitive mistake, which I know it won't in your case. )

                    The 8 days refers to the PM system only...you have full posting priveleges on the forum....well, except for Solomon's Porch, of course.
                    Hope this doesn't show up twice, but first time didn't make it I guess as browser said it could load the next page after I hit submit.

                    Anyway I said thank you from both of us. I knew about mine. What I don't know is if she will be back to read you response here before the 8 days are up. Thank you again though.

                    By the way how does one turn on this messaging thing I keep being told that isn't on? I would be glad to do it if I could just find it and take care of it.

                    hugh

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Souled Out, I agree it does not say when. We don't know how long Adam was on his own in the Garden before Eve and the only time he seems to show up is after God created Eve. Then we don't know how long both Adam and Eve spent in the Garden either before Satan tempted her. Time from what we have been told did not start till they were sent out of the Garden. Just for the sake of formulating an opinion on it from what I have read and understood, I have come to believe that there is a strong possibility that Satan and the others were not cast out from the presence of God until after Eve was created. So now I have a revised opinion from what I had, but that is all we can have as there are no concrete answers to this one.

                      hugh

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Walstib View Post
                        I agree that there are messengers of this world and messengers not of this world. Jesus being called an angel I have not looked into much so maybe I should read that other thread hear some but this is not really on focus to our discussion. Still I am not finding agreement with your conclusion for the verse from Corinthians.

                        Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (1Co 5:10-13)

                        Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (1Co 6:1-4)

                        I did just put one verse down but did not do so without assuming it would be taken in it’s full context. Paul teaches that it is proper to judge the sin on a person. Both believers and non believers. He specifies that the saints will judge the world. A earthly messenger of God would be of this world. He then goes on to compare it to angels to show the depth of what the children of God will become. They are not of this life as shown in his comparison. “this life” referring to “of this world”.

                        Even with the definitions you give of the different kinds of angels I don’t see it fitting the context of the verse. How would you say that my reasoning here in this passage is wrong?

                        Peace,

                        Joe
                        I wouldn't say that it is wrong, it's just different than how I see it. The scripture, to me is an escalation of responsibility: first judging things of this world, then judging things in heaven.

                        “Know ye not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life?" Things that pertain to this life vs. things pertaining to the next life.

                        Comment

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