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  • Will Worship - Self Imposed?

    According to the following scripture "Will Worship is when we choose to do that which is no longer required to be done.

    Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    Here it is in context

    Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
    15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
    18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
    19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
    20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
    21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
    22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
    Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    God bless you.

    Firstfruits

  • #2
    It is apparent to me that this passage refers to the doctines and commandments of men, something that was NEVER required to be done. It is similar to when Messiah said something about doing things to be seen by men.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Emanate View Post
      It is apparent to me that this passage refers to the doctines and commandments of men, something that was NEVER required to be done. It is similar to when Messiah said something about doing things to be seen by men.
      Thanks Emanate,

      Are all the things that Paul mentioned commandments and doctrines of men?

      Firstfruits

      Comment


      • #4
        The OT is full of commands to worship..... yet at a quick glance I only found two commands to worship in the NT.... maybe because the grounding for worship is ingrained in the OT
        The LORD is my Miracle

        G_d was gracious He has shown favor


        Hope is a seed
        God plants in our hearts
        to remind us
        there are better things ahead.
        -Holley Gerth

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
          Thanks Emanate,

          Are all the things that Paul mentioned commandments and doctrines of men?

          Firstfruits
          FF,

          What do you think pleases God more? Doing things His way or doing things our way?
          Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by keck553 View Post
            FF,

            What do you think pleases God more? Doing things His way or doing things our way?
            According to what Paul has written God is not pleased with those that "Will Worship" Or self impose upon themselves that which is not required.

            20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
            21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
            22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
            Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

            I hope that answers your question.

            Firstfruits

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ACCM View Post
              The OT is full of commands to worship..... yet at a quick glance I only found two commands to worship in the NT.... maybe because the grounding for worship is ingrained in the OT
              So are the commandments and ordinances in these scriptures from the OT?

              Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
              11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
              12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
              13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
              14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
              15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
              16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
              17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
              18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
              19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
              20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
              21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
              22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
              Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

              Thank you.

              Firstfruits

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                So are the commandments and ordinances in these scriptures from the OT?
                Emanate has answered you sufficiently
                The LORD is my Miracle

                G_d was gracious He has shown favor


                Hope is a seed
                God plants in our hearts
                to remind us
                there are better things ahead.
                -Holley Gerth

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ACCM View Post
                  Emanate has answered you sufficiently
                  So the following are commandments of men?

                  Lev 6:14 And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar.
                  Lev 6:15 And he shall take of it his handful, of the flour of the meat offering, and of the oil thereof, and all the frankincense which is upon the meat offering, and shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savor, even the memorial of it, unto the LORD.

                  Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

                  1 Chron 23:31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:

                  2 Chron 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

                  Are these from God or are they man made?

                  How about these.

                  Num 19:13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

                  Lev 22:6 The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.

                  So again I ask, are the thing, Paul mentioned in the scriptures given man made or from God and the OT?

                  Thanks

                  Firstfruits

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    FF,

                    First we need a translation that is accurate to the Greek:

                    Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. - NASB

                    Let's look at the Greek word for your KJV's 'will worship' phrase:

                    eÍqelorhskiđa


                    1. voluntary, arbitrary worship
                    2. worship which one prescribes and devises for himself, contrary to the contents and nature of faith which ought to be directed to Christ
                    3. said of the misdirected zeal and the practice of ascetics
                    Does this help answer your question?


                    Many blessings, and thanks for sharing another Scripture for us to study!
                    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                      So the following are commandments of men?

                      Lev 6:14 And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar.
                      Lev 6:15 And he shall take of it his handful, of the flour of the meat offering, and of the oil thereof, and all the frankincense which is upon the meat offering, and shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savor, even the memorial of it, unto the LORD.

                      Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

                      1 Chron 23:31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:

                      2 Chron 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

                      Are these from God or are they man made?

                      How about these.

                      Num 19:13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

                      Lev 22:6 The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.

                      So again I ask, are the thing, Paul mentioned in the scriptures given man made or from God and the OT?

                      Thanks

                      Firstfruits
                      A few thoughts on these commands and how Paul interprets them:

                      1)I think that we can say with certainty that the commands of I AM as found in the OT are not simply the words of men, for they were written by God to His people.

                      2) Paul is saying that we are no longer bound under the Mosaic law (let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.) These things were good and holy and they pointed towards Christ (these are a shadow of the things to come) However, the fullness of these laws is found in Christ (the substance belongs to Christ).

                      3)The teachings of men that Paul is referring to are not these commands themselves, but the commands of men (do not handle, do not taste, do not touch; Let no one pass judgment on you...with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath) to follow these commands; specifically, the teaching that these commands are necessary for salvation. He is trying to free the people of Colossae from the stringent requirements of the Mosaic Law because there is freedom in Christ.

                      In sum:

                      These teachings as found in the OT are God’s words to His covenant people under the Mosaic covenant. They became the words of men when men twisted them and insisted that men who are not under this covenant should follow the precepts and requirements of it.

                      In light of this I think that “Will Worship” (or self-made religion, thank you keck553) is a “worship” that is not prescribed by God but is rather an attempt by men to be holy. They forget or ignore that worship is about God and His requirements, not about the praise of men, and worship is not about legalistically holding to commands that were not intended for the church to obey.

                      In Christ,
                      Levin
                      Last edited by Levin; Oct 16th 2008, 03:29 AM.
                      “The Bible is essentially an open, artistic, imaginative narrative of God’s staggering care for the world, a narrative that will feed and nurture into obedience that builds community precisely by respect for the liberty of the Christian man or woman.”

                      -Walter Brueggemann

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by keck553 View Post
                        FF,

                        First we need a translation that is accurate to the Greek:

                        Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. - NASB

                        Let's look at the Greek word for your KJV's 'will worship' phrase:

                        eÍqelorhskiđa



                        1. voluntary, arbitrary worship
                        2. worship which one prescribes and devises for himself, contrary to the contents and nature of faith which ought to be directed to Christ
                        3. said of the misdirected zeal and the practice of ascetics
                        Does this help answer your question?


                        Many blessings, and thanks for sharing another Scripture for us to study!
                        Thank you Keck,

                        Yes that does help, and just to assure you, Paul has not said that those things are wrong but that those that do them are following self made religion, as per your explanation.

                        God bless you.

                        Firstfruits

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Levin View Post
                          A few thoughts on these commands and how Paul interprets them:

                          1)I think that we can say with certainty that the commands of I AM as found in the OT are not simply the words of men, for they were written by God to His people.

                          2) Paul is saying that we are no longer bound under the Mosaic law (let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.) These things were good and holy and they pointed towards Christ (these are a shadow of the things to come) However, the fullness of these laws is found in Christ (the substance belongs to Christ).

                          3)The teachings of men that Paul is referring to are not these commands themselves, but the commands of men (do not handle, do not taste, do not touch; Let no one pass judgment on you...with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath) to follow these commands; specifically, the teaching that these commands are necessary for salvation. He is trying to free the people of Colossae from the stringent requirements of the Mosaic Law because there is freedom in Christ.

                          In sum:

                          These teachings as found in the OT are God’s words to His covenant people under the Mosaic covenant. They became the words of men when men twisted them and insisted that men who are not under this covenant should follow the precepts and requirements of it.

                          In light of this I think that “Will Worship” (or self-made religion, thank you keck553) is a “worship” that is not prescribed by God but is rather an attempt by men to be holy. They forget or ignore that worship is about God and His requirements, not about the praise of men, and worship is not about legalistically holding to commands that were not intended for the church to obey.

                          In Christ,
                          Levin
                          Thank you Levin,

                          I believe, along with what Keck has also said, we are in agreement.

                          God bless you.

                          Firstfruits

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            a short comment

                            will worship=self imposed=vain glory

                            Paul is speaking about false spirituality and follows up with true spirituality.

                            Church and our spirituality isn't the Waffle House (dinner and a show).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Paul does say that there is a show of wisdom in doing those things. Will-worship is a desire to worship, to humble oneself and deny the lusts of the flesh thru these external rituals. The problem is they are not effective to actually accomplish anything in addition to what Christ has already done. That is his point that we have all we need provided for us by Christ, and there is nothing that we can add that will give us anything more; whether it is observance of the Jewish law or man's vain (Gnostic) ideas coming from his own imagination. Both of which are about carnal concerns for the body and neither of which has the power to actually subdue its lusts.
                              Robin

                              Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
                              And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
                              Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
                              Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

                              Comment

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