Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Whosoever Will!!!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in youboth to will and to do of his good pleasure

    God works it in us, and we work it out.

    If God has not worked it in us to will and to do, then no man can work it out.

    The only thing so called 'free will' can achieve is, man made religion and a man made intellectual salvation.

    When I first fell in love with my wife, I did not free will choose to love her. When I met her, something was created in my heart, that grew and grew. That something in my heart was so attracted to her, and I could not resist or reject.
    Do not forget that the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, so do you believe that God will give you eternal life unless you have first willingly accepted Jesus?

    Firstfruits

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
      Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

      Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in youboth to will and to do of his good pleasure

      God works it in us, and we work it out.

      If God has not worked it in us to will and to do, then no man can work it out.
      That passage is directed towards believers who have already accepted Christ so it doesn't really fit in this discussion, which has to do with how people initially become Christians.

      The only thing so called 'free will' can achieve is, man made religion and a man made intellectual salvation.
      What is your interpretation of the following verse then:

      Rev 22:17
      And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
        Would that be willingly or unwillingly? remembering that Jesus said "Take it freely" meaning willingly.

        Firstfruits

        You are suggesting that God may trick us and give us Salvation even if we do not want it?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
          Do not forget that the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, so do you believe that God will give you eternal life unless you have first willingly accepted Jesus?

          Firstfruits
          Right. If it doesn't have to be accepted, then why wouldn't God, who is not a respecter of persons, just give it to everyone? Also, why do we have examples of people accepting or rejecting the gospel? Doesn't that imply that they made that choice? If there is no choice, then there is no such thing as one accepting or rejecting the gospel.

          The following passages indicate that it is a choice:

          2 Thess 2
          9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
          10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

          John 12
          48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

          Luke 7
          29And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
          30But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

          Acts 7
          51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

          Matt 13
          15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

          Joshua 24
          15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

          Isaiah 66
          2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
          3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
          4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
            Do not forget that the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ,
            Oh please. What is with the "do not forget"?

            so do you believe that God will give you eternal life unless you have first willingly accepted Jesus?

            Firstfruits
            Yes.

            Again; It is not about willingness. It is about desire.

            Lord have mercy on me a sinner. Has absolutely nothing to do with a 'free will choice' cry from the heart. It is a desire for mercy.

            When the ten lepers cried out to the Lord for mercy, and to heal them. It was a desire for Him to meet thee needs.

            Again a leper:

            Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
            Mat 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

            The Centurion:

            Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
            Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
            Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
            Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
            Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
            Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

            The man who fell among thiefs:

            Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
            Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
            Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
            Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
            Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
            Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

            Where is anything remotely like 'free will' in any of these and many other stories?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by John146 View Post
              That passage is directed towards believers who have already accepted Christ so it doesn't really fit in this discussion, which has to do with how people initially become Christians.

              What is your interpretation of the following verse then:

              Rev 22:17
              And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
              Nothing to do with free will choice. It is about belief.

              Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
              Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

              The "Whosoever" are those who are sick, and they know they are very sick.

              Some people do not believe that they are sick, or that there sickness is not a great sickness. They do not see the need of the physician. They may believe they can heal themselves, or in some other alternate healing remedy.

              Some believe that the physician charges to much for their healing, but the Lord tell them that it is freely given to them. The question is do they believe Him?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
                Oh please. What is with the "do not forget"?



                Yes.

                Again; It is not about willingness. It is about desire.

                Lord have mercy on me a sinner. Has absolutely nothing to do with a 'free will choice' cry from the heart. It is a desire for mercy.

                When the ten lepers cried out to the Lord for mercy, and to heal them. It was a desire for Him to meet thee needs.

                Again a leper:

                Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
                Mat 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

                The Centurion:

                Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
                Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
                Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
                Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
                Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
                Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

                The man who fell among thiefs:

                Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
                Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
                Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
                Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
                Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
                Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

                Where is anything remotely like 'free will' in any of these and many other stories?
                This scripture tells us that whoever desires let him it take it freely/willingly.

                Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

                Whosoever will/whoever desires/wants.


                Firstfruits

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by John146 View Post
                  Right. If it doesn't have to be accepted, then why wouldn't God, who is not a respecter of persons, just give it to everyone? Also, why do we have examples of people accepting or rejecting the gospel? Doesn't that imply that they made that choice? If there is no choice, then there is no such thing as one accepting or rejecting the gospel.

                  The following passages indicate that it is a choice:

                  2 Thess 2
                  9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
                  10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

                  John 12
                  48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

                  Luke 7
                  29And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
                  30But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

                  Acts 7
                  51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

                  Matt 13
                  15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

                  Joshua 24
                  15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

                  Isaiah 66
                  2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
                  3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
                  4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

                  I agree, if we have been offered Christ and eternal life and we do not accept Gods offer then we have rejected Gods gift.

                  Why would God give us a gift that we do not want, the gift being Jesus.

                  God bless you!!

                  Sorry, I cannot Rep you at the moment.

                  Firstfruits

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
                    Nothing to do with free will choice. It is about belief.

                    Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
                    Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

                    The "Whosoever" are those who are sick, and they know they are very sick.

                    Some people do not believe that they are sick, or that there sickness is not a great sickness. They do not see the need of the physician. They may believe they can heal themselves, or in some other alternate healing remedy.

                    Some believe that the physician charges to much for their healing, but the Lord tell them that it is freely given to them. The question is do they believe Him?
                    Can you accept that which you do not believe?

                    Can you be forced to believe?

                    If you have no faith in Christ you cannot be saved, you cannot recieve Gods gift.

                    Firstfruits

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                      I agree, if we have been offered Christ and eternal life and we do not accept Gods offer then we have rejected Gods gift.

                      Why would God give us a gift that we do not want, the gift being Jesus.

                      God bless you!!

                      Sorry, I cannot Rep you at the moment.

                      Firstfruits

                      Would you not offer water to someone you thought was obviously thirsty? Or bread to someone who is hungry? How about clothing for someone who is destitute?

                      The answer to all three is simple. Love. God offers because he loves us, plain and simple. However, as in all three examples the person being offered could be proud and refuse that gift of water, bread, or clothing.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Veretax View Post
                        Would you not offer water to someone you thought was obviously thirsty? Or bread to someone who is hungry? How about clothing for someone who is destitute?

                        The answer to all three is simple. Love. God offers because he loves us, plain and simple. However, as in all three examples the person being offered could be proud and refuse that gift of water, bread, or clothing.
                        I understand what you are saying, the thing is God has offered us eternal life when we accept His Son Jesus.

                        Not all will believe.

                        Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

                        Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

                        There's a saying " you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink"

                        Jn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

                        Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

                        The water is there, the water is free, yet still not all will drink.

                        God bless you!

                        Firstfruits

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The way I've always understood it, is that Christ died for all the sins of the World, for really it only took one sin to be guilty of the entire law, however, now to receive the debt payment you must accept the debt payor, that being Christ. So in this one thing are all men are tried whether they believe by faith, or believe not. Christ's blood covered all sin as made known by the law so that to enter in we need only walk through the correct gate. Christ is that gate. If we fail to enter to accept that grace and debt payment, that is not to make Jesus's payment lessened.

                          In the end though it may seem that Christ's sacrifice is only effectual for believers, it does not mean that it was not intended for all mankind.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Veretax View Post
                            The way I've always understood it, is that Christ died for all the sins of the World, for really it only took one sin to be guilty of the entire law, however, now to receive the debt payment you must accept the debt payor, that being Christ. So in this one thing are all men are tried whether they believe by faith, or believe not. Christ's blood covered all sin as made known by the law so that to enter in we need only walk through the correct gate. Christ is that gate. If we fail to enter to accept that grace and debt payment, that is not to make Jesus's payment lessened.

                            In the end though it may seem that Christ's sacrifice is only effectual for believers, it does not mean that it was not intended for all mankind.
                            Salvation is for all mankind but it can only be gained by accepting or believing in Jesus.

                            Mt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

                            Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

                            Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                            Jn 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

                            2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                            Again, not all have believed.

                            Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

                            Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

                            Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

                            God bless you!

                            Firstfruits

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                              Salvation is for all mankind but it can only be gained by accepting or believing in Jesus.

                              ...

                              Again, not all have believed.

                              ...

                              Firstfruits
                              Heh, I agree with you, perhaps you misunderstood what I said here:

                              In the end though it may seem that Christ's sacrifice is only effectual for believers, it does not mean that it was not intended for all mankind.

                              Belief clearly meaning acceptance of Christs Sacrifice by faith. I think we are in agreement, though we may word it slightly differently. Christ's sacrifice was for all, but as far as Salvation is concerned it is only effectual/effective/redeemed as if by a coupon, by those who have trusted his sacrifice by faith.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Veretax View Post
                                Heh, I agree with you, perhaps you misunderstood what I said here:

                                In the end though it may seem that Christ's sacrifice is only effectual for believers, it does not mean that it was not intended for all mankind.

                                Belief clearly meaning acceptance of Christs Sacrifice by faith. I think we are in agreement, though we may word it slightly differently. Christ's sacrifice was for all, but as far as Salvation is concerned it is only effectual/effective/redeemed as if by a coupon, by those who have trusted his sacrifice by faith.
                                Amen! Yes we are in agreement.

                                God bless you!

                                Firstfruits

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X