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  • I think the 2 witnesses could be here!

    Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.

    Ranchgirl

  • #2
    Originally posted by ranchgirl View Post
    Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.

    Ranchgirl
    John the Baptist already came in the spirit of Elijah.

    Luke 1:13-17 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias (Elijah), to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

    Where did you find the Scripture that said that "the 'spirit of Elijah' would be here in the last days."

    No doubt, these two men that visited you came in the Spirit of God, but not in the spirit of Elijah.

    Shirley

    Comment


    • #3
      I think the times we're in are definitely as the days of Noah, and most anyone who believes, has faith, and studies the word can see the signs. Those that don't can't see the signs. I stopped believing in coincidences a long time ago, and I've had many strange things happen to me as well that I know God brought before me. So yes I believe those were your 2 witnesses.

      God bless you,
      Truthistheword


      Originally posted by ranchgirl View Post
      Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.

      Ranchgirl

      Comment


      • #4
        From my understanding the 2 witnessess are to be at the wailing wall during the tribulation..........

        Comment


        • #5
          I've always understood it the same way that skc53 does; the witnesses will be here in human form themselves, but will have the powers of God with them for when they are witnessing to the last of those who have never heard the Word.

          Correct me if Im wrong though, but this will be post-rapture.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by truthistheword View Post
            I think the times we're in are definitely as the days of Noah, and most anyone who believes, has faith, and studies the word can see the signs. Those that don't can't see the signs. I stopped believing in coincidences a long time ago, and I've had many strange things happen to me as well that I know God brought before me. So yes I believe those were your 2 witnesses.

            God bless you,
            Truthistheword
            Your are right, "coincidence" was probably the wrong word. God did send them I believe, because they left me with more inspiration than ever to get into the word and study. The Bible has become more exciting to me than it ever has and I just do not get tired of reading and learning. I am so excited about the work that God is doing! I can feel deep in my spirit that God is uniting a body of believers that cross all denominational lines with a common goal to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

            Comment


            • #7
              Revelation 11:3: And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

              Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
              Romans 11:24 For if thou [the Gentiles] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree [the Jews]: how much more shall these [the Jews], which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

              Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: 9 (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow

              Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "

              Isaac Newton: "... God gives power to his two Witnesses, and they prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days clothed in sackcloth. They are called the two Olive-trees, with relation to the two Olive-trees, which in Zechary's vision, chap. 4 stand on either side of the golden candlestick to supply the lamps with oil: and Olive-trees, according to the Apostle Paul, represent Churches, Rom. 11. .... They are also called the two candlesticks; which in this Prophecy signify Churches, the seven Churches of Asia being represented by seven candlesticks...." - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John

              Jamieson Faucett and Brown "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

              Christians and Jews were exiled from the Holy Land by Islamization. By the mid 1800s Israel was a virtually deserted desolate wasteland.

              Israel became independent in 1948, returning from the wilderness of the nations after more than 2500 years. 1948 - 1260 = 688. A quick Yahoo search reveals that this was the founding year of the Dome of the Rock - the abomination of desolation. God's symbol in prophecy for Islam as the central subject of the "time of the end".

              Quoting from "The False Prophet": "In 1569, the great Anabaptist theologian, Thieleman van Braght, wrote the following in Martyrs Mirror, pages 21-24: 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days, which reckoned according to prophetic language means as many years… let it be reckoned as it may, say we, as a very long period of time.'

              Two hundred years later, Matthew Henry, in his 'Commentary of the Whole Bible', came to the same conclusion (Vol VI, page 1157 column 1, para. 2): "….if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained, this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect of when the end might be."

              Also Jamison, Faucett & Brown commentary - "..... in the wilderness 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days.' In the wider sense, we may either adopt the year-day theory of 1260 years..."

              We have a big advantage over these guys now that 1948 has passed. We can understand many verses both mathematically as well as textually, in a way that has never been possible before this "time of the end".
              Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ranchgirl View Post
                Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.

                Ranchgirl
                Revelation is a book of alot of symbols. Many have believed in a physical appearance of these witnesses during the end of days. I believe that the two witnesses were actually Moses and Elijah representing the law and the prophets. Here is the scripture:

                Revelation 11

                The Two Witnesses

                1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

                7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
                11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
                13At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

                Given the time frame in Revelation 1, I cannot put the two witnesses into the 21st Century but in the 1st century. The beginning of chapter 11 shows that John was to measure the temple of God. This states that the temple was still standing and I believe that this was the Herodian temple, again keeping Revelation with the audience that heard it. When you read the scripture you will see that the gentiles will trample the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months and the witnesses will prophecy for 1260 days. This time period is 3 1/2 years. The trampling is exactly what happened when the Roman army led by Titus surrounded the city and eventually destroyed it in 70 A.D. The time period is the exact time it took from the surrounding of the city and to it's destruction. Again, taking the audience relevance seriously.

                As I stated before the two witnesses represent Moses and Elijah or the law and the prophets. If you notice the powers that they have do correspond with what Moses (Water into Blood, and Plagues) and Elijah (No rain, Fire from heaven) did in the Old Testament. The two witnesses I believe represented the witness against Israel of their rejection of Christ. The Old Testament or the Old Covenant's very purpose was to lead to our Lord Jesus. They rejected their messiah and the Law and the Prophets was testifying against Israel, in their rejection. It was also the last chance Israel (1st Century Only) had to turn to Christ before it would be destroyed in 70 A.D. The Beast which is Christ's enemy seemed to have triumphed as the witnesses lay dead in the streets as Israel bowed before it and not what the Law and the Prophets were pointing to, Christ. The city (Jerusalem) rejoiced now that the witnesses against them were seemingly dead. Their going to heaven and part of the city being destroyed seems to symbolize Christ's coming in judgement against the city that rejected Him.

                Also, remember the Transfiguration where Christ was joined by Moses and Elijah. Here we have a wonderful representation of the Old Covenant, Moses and Elijah and the New Covenant, Jesus. I think a great interpretation here is the same point, that Moses and Elijah were pointing towards Christ. This meeting also shows the confirming of the Old Covenant by Christ. How would this show that point? Well only Jesus was left standing and Moses and Elijah had left, not the other way around.

                There are various interpretations of the two witnesses but I believe keeping it with it's contemporary audience of the 1st century is crucial.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ranchgirl View Post
                  Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.
                  Ranchgirl
                  When you understand that the two witnesses symbolize the Church then you can understand the two witnesses have been around since the cross. I had posted this in a similar thread a while back and thought it might help to copy and paste again here. It did not originate from me, but helped me to understand the two witnesses symbolize the church in time and her messengers.

                  The Candlestick is a symbol of God's Church. The star is a symbol of the messenger of God's Church. God, from the very beginning of the book of Revelation reveals what the imagery of the Candlesticks symbolize.

                  Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

                  Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

                  Here we have Jesus Christ Himself using the same Candlestick [luchnia] to symbolize the Church, and the witnesses work in the New Testament Church as those keeping the light shinning continually, not hiding it, but bringing this light to the World.

                  Luke 8:16 No man when he lighteth a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a Candlestick, that they which enter in may see the Light.


                  Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world, A City that is set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a Candlestick; and it giveth Light unto all that are in the house.

                  The Olive tree is used by God to symbolize the Church. For example in Hosea 14, speaking of Christ we read:

                  Hosea 14:5-7 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the Olive Tree, and his smell as Lebanon. They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.
                  When we are in Christ, we are like a green olive tree in the house of the Lord (Psalms 52:8). This is the Salvation and the hope of the Israel of God. And as we are the light of the world because Christ is the light of the world, so we are the Olive tree because Christ is this Olive tree. He is the Israel of the New Covenant in whom if we abide, we are sons of God. We can see this in Romans chapter nine or chapter eleven where the Gentile nations are grafted into New Covenant Israel, which is symbolized by the Olive tree.

                  Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

                  God is using a wild olive tree to symbolize the Gentile nations, and the natural Olive Tree to symbolize the representation of Covenant Israel into which believers are grafted. i.e., we join with Paul and the Apostles into Christ, the true Israel of God (Ephesians 2:11-19) which this Covenant tree represents. This is the New Covenant Church, and it is symbolized by the olive tree having Gentiles grafted into it that they become heirs (right along with the Jews) according to the promises to Israel.

                  Likewise in Zechariah chapter four, the symbolism of two olive trees and the candlestick (lampstand) are signifying the Church.

                  Zechariah 4:2-6 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

                  The candlesticks and olive tress stand before God, not by their own power or by their own might, but by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. It is not by any power we have inherently, but because of the power of the Holy Spirit of God given us that we witness or have the testimony of Christ. Not by our own oil, but by the pure oil of the Olive tree.

                  Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

                  The same thing revelation chapter eleven says of the two candlestick/olive trees there. They stand before the God of the earth. They are the anointed ones, meaning they are those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit, by being in Christ. The oil for the light is not theirs, it is that given them.

                  1st John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

                  So we see from God's Word that the Two Witnesses represent the Church, the Candlesticks represent the Church, and the Olive Tree represents the Church, and that they are the anointed ones who stand before the God of the earth. All roads are leading to the same inescapable conclusion. This imagery represents the Church.

                  The final identifying factor is that these two witnesses are also called the two Prophets (verse 10). Who are the Prophets of God today?

                  1st Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

                  Ever since the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, the Lord's servants of the New Covenant Church go forth prophesying (Acts 2:17). Whenever the Church declares the Word that the future holds everlasting life for the servants of God, an inheritance from above, and it holds judgment for those who do not believe, they are prophesying.

                  RW

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Building & Destroying Simultaneous

                    The time the two witnesses symbolizing 'the' Church, are given to build the Kingdom through the universal church is referenced as 1260 days. This is for building, and nourishing the universal church in time.

                    Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

                    Re 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

                    The time given the forces of evil to pursue, persecute, overcome and kill the witnesses is referenced as forty and two months.

                    Re 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

                    Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

                    I know the popular opinion is that this time for building and time for destroying is split in half, with the first half for building, and the second half for destroying. But there is one more time reference that cannot be ignored. This is referenced as time, times, and half a time. The woman is nourished from the face of the serpent during this time, this would be the 1260 days (Rev 12:6).

                    Re 12:14 And to the woman (universal church in time) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where SHE IS NOURISHED FOR A TIME, AND TIMES, AND HALF A TIME, FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT.

                    The beast thinks he can change the times and laws which God decrees, but Christ tells us the Judgment shall sit, or that the beast will not be able, (even though he will try) to change what God has decreed. But the saints of God will be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of times, this would be the 42 months (Rev 13:5).

                    Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and THINK TO CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS: and they SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND UNTIL A TIME AND TIMES AND THE DIVIDING OF TIME.
                    Da 7:26 BUT THE JUDGMENT SHALL SIT, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

                    Daniel tells us that Michael, the great Prince will stand up for His people, and when He does it will be a time of trouble like never before. When the man standing by the river asks the man clothed in linen how long till the end of all these wonders, the man in linen says, “IT SHALL BE FOR A TIME, TIMES, AND AN HALF,” then all things will be finished.

                    Da 12:1 AND AT THAT TIME SHALL MICHAEL STAND UP, THE GREAT PRINCE WHICH SANTDETH FOR THE CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

                    Da 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, HOW LONG SHALL IT BE TO THE END OF THESE WONDERS?
                    Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that IT SHALL BE FOR A TIME, TIMES, AND AN HALF; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

                    In Rev 12 we read about the birth of the NT church in time. It is at this time, the beginning of the NT church when Michael stands up for His people (Rev 12:7). We read of a great war being fought in heaven where Michael and His angels fight against the dragon and his angels. Michael prevails and the Devil and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth. This is when the universal church in time is nourished from the face of the serpent for a time, and times, and half a time or 1260 days, but it is also the time Satan is given to persecute the church for 42 months.

                    Re 12:7 AND THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN: MICHAEL AND HIS ANGELS FOUGHT AGAINST THE DRAGON; AND THE DRAGON FOUGHT AND HIS ANGELS’
                    Re 12:8 AND PREVAILED NOT; NEITHER WAS THEIR PLACE FOUND ANY MORE IN HEAVEN.
                    Re 12:9 AND THE GREAT DRAGON WAS CAST OUT, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: HE WAS CAST OUT INTO THE EARTH, AND HIS ANGELS WERE CAST OUT WITH HIM.

                    Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where SHE IS NOURISHED FOR A TIME, AND TIMES, AND HALF A TIME, FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT.

                    We have Daniel telling us that Michael will stand up for His people at the BEGINNING of the NT church era. From the time Michael stands up for His people until the fulfillment of all things is called a time, times and a half. In Rev at the birth, or BEGINNING of the NT church we read of Michael fighting against the dragon (standing up for His people), and the newly birthed NT church being led into the wilderness where she is nourished from the face of the serpent for a time, times and a half of time, this time is also symbolized by 1260 days. Daniel also tells us that the saints are given unto the hand of the beast for a time and times and the dividing of time, also symbolized as 42 months. Since, according to Daniel time, times and a half begin with Michael standing up for His people and ends with the fulfillment of ALL THINGS, it is impossible to divide the 1260 days, the 42 months, and the time, times and half time in the middle with the building of the Kingdom through the universal church coming during the first half, and the total destruction of the universal church in time during the second half.

                    The only way to harmonize all these time references is to realize that all of these times are referring to the whole NT universal church era or Kingdom age. Within the whole universal church era there is both building of the Kingdom through the universal church in time, and persecution, and destroying the saints of God happening simultaneously, or at the same dividing of time. Which is exactly why Daniel tells us this will be a time of trouble such as never before. The exact same warning from Christ when He tells His disciples:

                    Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

                    RW

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by skc53 View Post
                      From my understanding the 2 witnessess are to be at the wailing wall during the tribulation..........
                      Your understanding is correct.

                      During the tribulation is when those two witnesses are to appear. John
                      was dealing with future prophecy on into the last days and the end of time-not that which had already happned or would happen in 1956, 1967, etc... only that which would happen at the end.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ranchgirl View Post
                        I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it.
                        Sounds like Mormons. They don't like to admit the fact . . . any bona-fide Christian would be pleased to tell you which church, or group of churches, they are a part of.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi ranchgirl, If you read Rev 11 carefully, you will see that these two dont fit the description given, the two of Rev will be a very special two to say the least I believe this to still be future and have not found any historical validiity for it having already happened. I think two people who could do the things they will be given to do then lay in the street dead for three days, then ascend to heaven would have been noticed and written about. I believe this will be a last days event and will happen during the tribulation, the 1260 days will be the first 3.5 years of the GT


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                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                            Hi ranchgirl, If you read Rev 11 carefully, you will see that these two dont fit the description given, the two of Rev will be a very special two to say the least I believe this to still be future and have not found any historical validiity for it having already happened. I think two people who could do the things they will be given to do then lay in the street dead for three days, then ascend to heaven would have been noticed and written about. I believe this will be a last days event and will happen during the tribulation, the 1260 days will be the first 3.5 years of the GT
                            Rev 11:11 is NOT telling us that 3 ½ days comes “AFTER” 1,260 days. It says AFTER 3 ½ days, nothing about 1,260 days. It is after or at the end of 3 ½ days that the spirit of life enters into the two witnesses. This symbolizes the fullness of time, which is why we read they are then called to stand on their feet, and IMMEDIATELY they are called to heaven. The next thing we read is the beginning of the final outpouring of the wrath of God. That’s why we read IN THE SAME HOUR there is a great earthquake, and then the third woe COMES QUICKLY (suddenly, without delay, by surprise) and then the sounding of the seventh angel which signals the fullness of time.

                            Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

                            The number seven symbolizes the totality of whatever is in view. In this case the totality of God’s congregations.

                            Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

                            If it’s true that the two witnesses symbolize the totality of Churches, when God talks to these seven Churches, He is not talking to just those, He is talking to all believers and to all Churches. The totality of them which spans throughout time. We today are part of the seven Churches to whom God gives these warnings and encouragements.

                            So the Lord shows us through these two witnesses, that He has given the Church throughout the ages (totality of His congregations) to bring His prophesy into all the world. When did the Lord commission His Church to prophesy unto all the world? Scripture convinces me that this commission was given beginning with the first century Church.

                            Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
                            Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

                            Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
                            Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

                            We know the early Church was faithful in her ministry to preach the gospel, and teaching the disciples to observe all things whatsoever the Lord commanded. And though the Lord had promised to be with them, even unto the end of the world, these first Churches have long ago finished their testimony, and cease to exist today. The Church in Sardis for instance had a name that she lived, but Christ called her dead.

                            The point I am making is that these two witnesses, which symbolize the totality of Churches throughout the whole NT era, faithfully prophesy. There comes a time when Churches finish their testimony, are overcome and killed. Take for instance the Church in Sardis. They thought they were alive, the Lord says, “I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” Christ tells the Church of Pergamos, “Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.” To the Church of the Laodiceans, “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” To the Church in Ephesus, “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

                            In all of these warnings it becomes clear that the Lord alone builds up, and tears down His Church. According to Rev 11 He uses the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit to accomplish His purpose to overcome and kill the Church in time.

                            Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
                            Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

                            It is not only at the end or near the end of time when the two witnesses finish their testimony, are overcome and killed (Rev 13:7; Rev 17:14). This is something that has been on-going from the beginning of the universal Church in time. But the Church in her totality (7) never ceases to exist on earth. The Church may finish her testimony, be overcome and killed and she lies in the streets of the great city which is likened to Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified. Sodom depicts abominations of the unbelieving nations. Sodomites are those who imitated the licentious wickedness of Sodom (De 23:17; 1Ki 14:24; Ro 1:26-27).

                            1Ki 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

                            Egypt is known in Scripture as a land of oppression and bondage, as well as whoredoms.

                            Ex 3:9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.

                            Eze 23:8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.

                            Lying dead in the street of the great city is symbolic for lying dead in the world of unbelief. It symbolizes being dead in a world that belongs to Satan.

                            2Co 4:4 In whom the GOD OF THIS WORLD hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

                            Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might DELIVER US FROM THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD, according to the will of God and our Father:

                            1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of GOD OVERCOMETH THE WORLD: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

                            Since the testimony given these two witnesses (the totality of God’s congregations) began with the first century Churches, the three and one half days and the one thousand two hundred sixty days must encompass the entire NT era. Bringing prophesy 1260 days symbolizes the NT era, and lying dead in the streets for 3 ½ days symbolizes the NT era. Just as we see the thousand years reigning with Christ symbolizes the NT era, and the thousand years for the binding of Satan symbolizes the NT era. They are not literal time references, but rather time references that symbolize the fullness of time.

                            RW

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                            • #15
                              Quote - John 1:21-And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.”


                              The reason that John the baptist denied being either of these two witnesses (Prophets) was because their comming "together" was for a yet future time.

                              John the baptist only came in the spirit and power of Elijah even down to his clothing and leather belt , but he was not "THE" Elijah.

                              2 Kings 1:8
                              So they answered him, “A hairy man wearing a leather belt around his waist.” And he said, “It is Elijah the Tishbite.”

                              Mark 1:6
                              Now John was clothed with camel’s hair and with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey.

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