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  • Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict

    Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict

    "Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict" does not fit the end time or tribulation period scenario of the most popular theology which came out of several 19th century theologies, such as the Mormons, the Christian Science movement and Jehovah's Witnesses. Some would include the Seventh Day Adventists in this list.

    The concept of a heightened conflict in the very end times between a majority of evangelicals allied with the Hebrew Roots, Messianic Judaism and Sacred Name people who uphold the chosen people teaching against the Remnant of Israel is certainly not mainstream church doctrine and is not a part of dispensationalist end time prophecy.

    But in the New Testament what is the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4? This falling away in dispensationalist prophecy, I believe, is to happen only during the tribulation period, and apparently is part of the end time reign of the dispensationalist Anti-Christ figure.

    What kind of conflict within Christianity could lie behind the martyrdom of Christians taught in John 16: 2 ("the time cometh that whosoever killeth you will think he doth God service)?

    The reference to synagogues is not limited to Jewish synagogues. Synagogues is Strong's number 4864, meaning "an assemblage of persons, a Jewish synagogue, by analogy, a Christian church, assembly, congregation, synagogue." Sunagoge in the Greek, or synagogue, can mean a Christian church.

    Luke 21: 16 says: "And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and
    brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they
    cause to be put to death." "Some" has been added to the King James
    English in Luke 21: 16, because the Greek word "tis", or "men",
    meaning some is not in the Greek Textus Receptus, from which the KJV
    is translated.

    "And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates,
    and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or
    what ye shall say:" Luke 12: 11

    And Matthew 24: 9 also mentions martyrdom of Christians. "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

    It is interesting that the Greek word witness, for example, the two witnesses of Revelation 12: 3 is Strong's number 3144, "martus, mar-toos, a witness, by analogy, a martyr."

    The Remnant of Israel in the last days heightened conflict against those who uphold false doctrines are witnesses for Christ, and some might become martus, or martyrs. Those who obey Isaiah 29: 24 and Revelation 18: 4, and come out of false doctrines into the truth may also become witnesses or martyrs.

    In Luke 9: 51-56 there is the account of James and John who wanted Christ to call fire down on the village of the Samaritans who rejected Jesus. "And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
    52. And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
    53. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
    54. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
    55. But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
    56. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. "

    "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10: 10

    At that time James and John were still in the mindset of the Old Covenant. In the transformation of physical Israel to that spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5-9 one of the large changes was that in Christ Jesus God's people no longer deliberately seek to kill others as had been done under the Old Covenant and was done under the rule of the Pharisees and Talmudic Judaism.

    Christ came to bring spiritual life and, in addition, he did not come to bring physical death.

    Look at a concordance for the word kill, especially in Luke, John and Acts. You will find a large number of verses in which the people of physical Israel are trying to kill or have killed Christ and others they considered to be threats. "Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
    48. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
    49. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
    50. That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
    51. From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." Luke 11: 47-51

    "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." John 5: 18

    "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.....Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?" John 7: 1, 19

    "When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth..........Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
    58. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
    59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
    60. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep." Acts 7: 54, 57-59

    In Acts 21: 31 "And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar." The Jews caught Paul in the temple where he was sent by James to take part in a ceremony of purification and tried to kill him.

    Death is spiritual death in Scripture, and Hell is a place of torment. The use of
    Death and Hell, with Death usually coming before Hell, (except in
    Revelation 1; 18) in Scripture almost suggests that Death and Hell are
    being used as personifications. As persons might be thrown into the
    lake of fire, in Revelation 20: 14 Death and Hell are said to be cast
    into the lake of fire.

    In Revelation 6: 8 the name of the rider on the pale horse is Death, and Hell followed after him.

    Rejecting the Gospel message that Christ as fully God appeared on
    earth in man's flesh leads to spiritual death, as Peter says in Acts
    3: 23 every soul who rejects Christ is destroyed from among the
    people. He is talking here to the Jews, but what he says about being
    destroyed spiritually by rejecting Christ applies to everyone.
    However, for our understanding of who and what Israel reborn in Christ
    is as our identity in Christ, Peter's statement that Jews who rejct
    Christ are destroyed from among the people is significant. There is
    only one Israel reborn in Christ, and all who belong to it are saved
    because they accept Christ.

    Jesus Christ is life. Christ in John 4: 14 says "...but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

    One of the two parts of Satan's work
    in men to defeat the Gospel of Christ is the spirit of anti-Christ and
    the second is the False Prophet. Neither are one man, but represent many
    with the spirit of anti-Christ and many false prophets.

    The spirit of anti-Christ is death because it openly rejects Christ who is life. The false
    prophet, who in Revelation 13: 11-12 is the second beast who causes "...the earth and them
    which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound as healed," who is the spirit
    of anti-Christ, is hell.

    In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The
    essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel
    and the church."(page 3, "Dispensationalism")

    "The nature of the church is a crucial point of difference between
    classic, or normative, dispensationalism and other doctrinal systems.
    Indeed, ecclesiology, or the doctrine of the church, is the touchstone
    of dispensationalism(and also of pretribulationalism)."
    (page 123, Charles Ryrie Dispensationalism (Chicago: Moody Press,
    [1966], 1995)

    J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in
    his book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
    and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
    The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. This mystery
    program must be completed before God can resume His program with
    Israel and bring it to completion. These considerations all arise from
    a literal method of interpretation."
    (page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).

    The term dispensationalism can be misleading for those who do not know the basic
    starting position of this theology, that God has two different
    peoples, not one as John 10: 16
    clearly says, and that unsaved physical Israel which as a house
    rejected Christ remain God's
    chosen people. Christian Zionism is a more accurate term for the
    theology.

    In Christian Zionism Israel is always all physical Israel, and no distinction
    is made between that majority of physical Israel that rejected Christ and the
    remnant which accepted him. So, the theology is honoring those who rejected
    Christ, and did not just substitute a similar Christ and a similar Gospel for him and his real
    Gospel. Therefore the theology honors those who support death.

  • #2
    Re: Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict

    Originally posted by northwye View Post
    ...The term dispensationalism can be misleading for those who do not know the basic starting position of this theology, that God has two different peoples, not one as John 10: 16 clearly says, and that unsaved physical Israel which as a house rejected Christ remain God's chosen people. Christian Zionism is a more accurate term for the theology...
    I consider myself a "completed Jew", because I am now living for Jesus, despite my Jewish family lineage. Tell me please, which of these two dispensational "different peoples" do I belong to? The entire "dispensational theory" of 2 different peoples makes no biblical sense at all. There is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict

      Originally posted by Raybob View Post
      I consider myself a "completed Jew", because I am now living for Jesus, despite my Jewish family lineage. Tell me please, which of these two dispensational "different peoples" do I belong to? The entire "dispensational theory" of 2 different peoples makes no biblical sense at all. There is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son.
      I consider myself as a dispensationist, although maybe I shouldnt announce it, it is quickly becoming a misunderstood viewpoint, For instance I dont believe that God has two different peoples Israel and the church, I cant speak for Ryrie or Dwight but Im sure they would agree with me, that at different times Gods agency to mankind was through Israel and then the Church as a people santified to himself.

      Gods people have always been distinguised through faith in Gods Word, no matter what dispensation, and Israel although they had the oracles of God were not faithful and were a disobedient people. What a strange view to have physica lIsrael as Gods people, according to that view David and Saul are the same, the disciples and the pharisees are the same etc

      As to which of the two peoples you belong to? If you believe Gods Word then you are inducted into the hall of faith with all the other saints, eg Noah Sarah Rahab Samson and all the NT saints.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict

        Originally posted by boangry View Post
        ...As to which of the two peoples you belong to? If you believe Gods Word then you are inducted into the hall of faith with all the other saints, eg Noah Sarah Rahab Samson and all the NT saints.
        What about my unsaved Jewish relatives, like my dad? Does he have some kind of "Get out of hell free" card, because of his lineage? When Jesus returns or calls him home earlier, does he have a chance?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict

          "For instance I dont believe that God has two different peoples Israel and the church, I cant speak for Ryrie or Dwight but Im sure they would agree with me, that at different times Gods agency to mankind was through Israel and then the Church as a people santified to himself." boangry

          Dispensationalism, better called Christian Zionism because dispensationalism for some means just a study of dispensations, postulates that (l) God now has two different peoples, all physical Israel and the "church," and (2) that scripture must be given a literal interpretation. If one gives up the postulate that God now has two different peoples, and all physical Israel are now the chosen people, he is not really a dispensatiomnalist, following the theology of the John Darby, Edward Irving, C. I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee and many others.

          Some followers of Darby, Irving, Scofield and Chafer give up the theory of the pre-tribulation rapture of the dispensationalist church, but stick to the two house teaching, that all physical Israel now remain a people of God, the chosen people, and God has a second people, the church. In giving up the pre-trib rapture, they do not depart from the theology. But in giving up the chosen people idea, they give up the more important part of the theology.

          A way of trying to defend a theology at the present time is to avoid dealing with the central issue of the theology, to go to the side of the main issue in some way. Saying that one does not agree with a dispensationalist spokesman that God has two peoples, but that God in another dispensation dealt with physical Israel as his special people, and now the church is his people can be such an avoidance of the central issue of whether the teaching that God now has two different peoples agrees with scripture. This process of argument is called the dialectic, which tries to disprove "it is written," as absolute truth. Theology is man leaning to his own understanding (Proverbs 3: 5-6). Scripture does not describe the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant as a change from one dispensation to another dispensation. In the Old Testament this change was called turning Jerusalem upside down (II Kings 21: 13), turning things upside down (Isaiah 29: 16) and "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter?" (Jeremiah 18: 1-6). In Luke 13: 6-9, in the parable of the fig tree, God the Father wanted to cut down the tree, representing physical Israel, because it was bearing no fruit, but Christ the Son wanted to dig about it and dung it, in other words, to give physical Israel another chance to bear fruit, and if not to cut it down.

          Neither the Old Testament prophecies on the change in Israel or the parable of the fig tree say what that change was to involve. That change was revealed in the life and teachings of Christ, and in the works and words of the Apostles, and even after the Day of Pentecost, and after the Christian community at Jerusalem was in existence, Paul was given additional revelation from Christ, which became a part of the Gospel. Near the end of the First Century John added the final revelation as a letter to the churches and prophecies.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict

            Thank you for reminding me of the explanatory power of the two-peoples hypothesis. I'm a one-people-of-God guy, myself. I never get very far in discussing the Bible with a two-peoples guy because he sees the two-peoples hypothesis supported in all sorts of places that I don't. We just stop talking after a while, because we get nowhere.

            I concede that there is a special plan for ethnic Israel because Paul says so here, that hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Rom 11:25) and again here: concerning the gospel they are enemies because of you, but concerning the election they are beloved because of the fathers (Rom 11:28). But there is only one people of God, faithful Israel, which we gentiles have been grafted into by faith: you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree (Rom 11:17) Therefore Peter can use all the titles for we who believe as were used for faithful ethnic Israel: But you are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of His possession, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Pet 2:9) We who believe partake in the Abrahamic Covenant.

            Much more can be said about this, perhaps another time.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict

              Northwye I am trying to work out whether you have been duped or whether you are doing the duping? Being a dispensationist I have never heard your understanding of the basic starting position of this theology before, Yet you present that view as a foundational position for a dispensationist. If this was true you should be able to quote dispensational teachers who say this, yet I have to quote northwye to show this(yes this rings alarm bells)

              Originally posted by northwye View Post
              The term dispensationalism can be misleading for those who do not know the basic
              starting position of this theology, that God has two different
              peoples, not one as John 10: 16
              clearly says, and that unsaved physical Israel which as a house
              rejected Christ remain God's
              chosen people. Christian Zionism is a more accurate term for the
              theology.
              The fact you have to point out what the belief is, shows the lack of ammunition in your attack.
              are these the best quotes you can find that show how people actually believe in the two people two ways of salvation, They Dont actually even come close to saying that!!! If this is what people actually believe then it should be easy to find a quote that says physical Israel is saved


              In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The
              essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel
              and the church."(page 3, "Dispensationalism")

              "The nature of the church is a crucial point of difference between
              classic, or normative, dispensationalism and other doctrinal systems.
              Indeed, ecclesiology, or the doctrine of the church, is the touchstone
              of dispensationalism(and also of pretribulationalism)."
              (page 123, Charles Ryrie Dispensationalism (Chicago: Moody Press,
              [1966], 1995)
              A distinction between Israel and the church is not God having two peoples but a distinction, without context Ryrie is not saying what you are saying he is, in fact I know for a fact his view on Israel and the church is different from Darby and Scofield, but your aim is to judge the whole view with one broad brush. This shows that not only have you not looked into what dispensations actually are but you don't know what the differing authors believe.

              Ryrie is very well aware of the biased attacks against his viewpoint he says considering this type
              There is the ridicule-of-doctrine attack. This is usually based on a straw-man construction of the dispensationalists doctrine or a partial statement of it. Some supposed teaching of dispensationalism is held up to ridicule, and by so much the entire system is condemned. For instance, the opponents of dispensationalism are quite sure that it teaches two (or more) ways of salvation. And they ask, What could be more unscriptural than that?
              Have a look at poor old Raybob's question to me, even though I said I dont believe God has two different peoples he thinks I still do because I dropped the D word.

              Darby believes that there is only one way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ.

              J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in
              his book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
              and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
              The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. This mystery
              program must be completed before God can resume His program with
              Israel and bring it to completion. These considerations all arise from
              a literal method of interpretation."
              (page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).
              Again there is no context supplied, Dwight Pentecost believes all the OT saints will be resurrected with the church(Jew and Gentile), and thinks God will resume his program with Israel in the Tribulation hence the distinction. Even though I slightly disagree with this line of thought, It is far from how you present his view.

              So what is it your really trying to undermine? let me guess!, the rapture? the literal 1000 yr reign of Israel on earth?

              "Scripture does not describe the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant as a change from one dispensation to another dispensation"

              Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

              Dispensation to a dispensationist basically means administration, The administration(dispensation) of Gods Word to mankind changed from the old to the new testament, namely through his Son, amen

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict

                Originally posted by boangry View Post
                ..."Scripture does not describe the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant as a change from one dispensation to another dispensation"

                Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

                Dispensation to a dispensationist basically means administration, The administration(dispensation) of Gods Word to mankind changed from the old to the new testament, namely through his Son, amen
                That passage shows Paul was given to be a dispenser of the grace of God. Dispensation means spreading or dispensing something. In this passage, it is the grace of God that Paul was the dispenser of. This has absolutely nothing to do with any time period at all.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict

                  "Spiritual Wrestling In the Last Days Conflict" does not fit the end time or tribulation period scenario of the most popular theology which came out of several 19th century theologies, such as the Mormons, the Christian Science movement and Jehovah's Witnesses. Some would include the Seventh Day Adventists in this list."

                  The term dispensationalism can be confusing. Christian Zionism better describes this theology which was developed by John Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Scofield, and Lewis S. Chafer and promoted later by many Christian Zionist celebrities, such as Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, etc, etc. It is Christian Zionism because it honors all physical Israel and the nation of Israel instead of a remnant of physical Israel which accepted Christ. In doing so, and by clearly saying that God now has two peoples and one is all physical Israel the theology contradicts not only Paul's revelations but also much of what is in the letters of Peter and John, and in Revelation. Hebrews contains much of the revelation given to Paul, whether Paul actually wrote it or not.

                  http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...ad.php?p=75907

                  When dispensationalist theology began in the 1830's it was a departure on some doctrines from Scripture as well as differing on these issues from what was being taught then in mainstream protestant Christianity. The pre-trib rapture of the church and the doctrine that God has two different peoples with whom he deals in different ways were two of the most important "New Truths" of dispensationalism at that time.

                  Walter Martin in The Kingdom of the Cults, defines a cult as "any religious group which differs significantly in some one or more respects as to belief or practice from those religious groups which are regarded as the normative expressions of religion in our total culture. This is from:
                  http://www.internetarchaeology.org/w...ons/intro.html

                  There is a big problem with defining a Christian cult, or a false doctrine, in terms of how much it differs from "normative expressions of religion in our total culture" and/or how much it is different from what was believed in the majority of denominations before the theology became popular. This is because if the false doctrine or cult becomes so popular that it takes over the majority of Christian denominations and churches, then for those in the theology and others, it is no longer false but "truth." The theology or cult becomes the authority for the broad way of the majority of Christians. The theology replaces scripture as authority.

                  When dispensationalist theology began in the 1830s it different on issues of when Christ would return, on God having two different peoples, that Israel mine inheritance (Isaiah 19: 25) must always refer to ethnic or physical Israel, and most followers of this theology believe it claims ethnic Israel remains the chosen people. This was "New Truth" in the 1830s. It was not mainstream Christian doctrine then.

                  But Christian Zionism by the early 20th century in the U.S. was taking over the evangelical denominations. Later in that century the theology was spread around the world by American missionaries. It became mainstream.

                  Although Christian Zionism has taken over most evangelical denominations and is certainly mainstream and is the normative expression of Christianity for a huge percentage of church Christians, it does not agree with some New Testament scriptures. Many Christians can supply these scriptures which disagree with the theology. It is the disagreement with scripture which is the test of whether a theology is false. Since theology is, to some extent, man leaning to his own understanding rather than totally accepting God's way and allowing him to show you his truth, all man-made theology is false to some extent.

                  There are several tactics that defenders of Christian Zionism use over and over. One is to say that "I" am not a dispensationalist or Christian Zionist, but "I" follows the theology and defends it. Another is to side step the main issue of the disagreement of some part of the theology with scripture then focused on, and to argue against the scripture in subtle ways. A third defense is the "yes-but" strategy. The Christian Zionist will seemingly agree with a point made in favor of scripture rather than the man-made theology, but will point out that "over here" it says just the opposite. This implies that scripture contradicts itself. Another procedure of defense of the theology is to misrepresent what was said against it. Still another tactic is to say or imply that what the man-made theology says it does not really mean, but that it means something else. And saying that Christian Zionism does not really say God has two different groups of people or houses because the theology, or some spokesmen for the theology, say that both groups of God's people must come through Jesus Christ to to saved, begs the question of why then claim that God has two different peoples? Why not just believe Christ in John 10: 16 and admit God has one fold, one saved group and one house. For Christian Zionism, this cannot be admitted, because it makes the chosen people idea very difficult to promote, and promoting the people who are the chosen by virtue of their genetics is what Christian Zionism is all about. An understanding and acceptance of what Paul says in Galatians 3: 16-29 makes the idea of a people chosen because they have the right genetics false under the New Covenant. The Christian Zionists can argue over and over by use of their five or six tactics that Galatians 3: 16-29 does not mean there is no longer a people chosen by virtue of their genetics. But Paul's revelation expressed here still stands for those who have faith.

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