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  • Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

    First of all, I am looking for something with more substance of "well we can never be perfect in this life". Second, I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that? Now I got frustrated at myself and even angry (I know THAT IS a sin!) at even the person writing the article because I do not want to "hate holiness" and although mistakes are not sins, that if you have ever sinned since salvation then you did not hate your sin or have conviction over it and I even prayed to Jesus that I do not want to be in sin and even asked God to make it impossible for me to sin but I am still frustrated. I still do not know if sinlessness is true or not. Because if it is then I want to get sinless. Often have I told God "I may fail you a lot in the future but please take these certain desires away".

    I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?
    Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

  • #2
    Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

    I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible
    No, because the flesh cannot cease from sinning. However, the man that has been born of God, he cannot sin, he has sinless perfection 1 Jn 3:9

    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    The man of flesh or that us that was born of the flesh is not born of God. The person the believer is that is born of God cannot sin in that nature that is born of God, but with that nature he was born of the flesh with is still united to him and it will always sin until it also will be adopted into the family of God at the Second Coming, which is called the Adoption of the Body Rom 8:23

    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    Thats what Paul means here Rom 7:24

    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

    But presently, that body of death the believer has, is in Union with a born again one who cannot sin, because he was born of God !

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

      Originally posted by anthony57 View Post
      No, because the flesh cannot cease from sinning. However, the man that has been born of God, he cannot sin, he has sinless perfection 1 Jn 3:9

      9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

      The man of flesh or that us that was born of the flesh is not born of God. The person the believer is that is born of God cannot sin in that nature that is born of God, but with that nature he was born of the flesh with is still united to him and it will always sin until it also will be adopted into the family of God at the Second Coming, which is called the Adoption of the Body Rom 8:23

      And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

      Thats what Paul means here Rom 7:24

      24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

      But presently, that body of death the believer has, is in Union with a born again one who cannot sin, because he was born of God !
      Romans 7 is another thing, it would seem that those who promote this teaching generally say that the part of Romans 7:14-25 was written when Paul was LOST and not saved. He was 'striving' with repentance and not yet saved. I have heard many arguments from both sides and I do not know which to believe.
      Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

        Anthony57, that's Gnosticism -1John 1:8. The flesh has been -past tense- crucified with Christ. If you don't believe that you will sin. When you do believe it you won't sin.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

          Walley10, Paul was describing what it is like to be born again, want to not sin, and not know how --crucified with Christ. He said, 'how to perform that which is good, if find not'. People are told 100 ways to not sin, but they are not told to believe they are dead to sin and alive in Christ, as Paul said.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

            .
            Methodological Prolegomenon:
            Does the Bible Contradict Itself?

            (1) No, of course it cannot!

            (1a)It cannot because God is wholly self-consistent,
            ......and God is the ultimate author and source of inspiration of the Bible,
            ......although it also reflects its diverse human authors as well.

            And in addition:

            (2) Yes, it most certainly does, and must contradict itself.

            (2a)It does contradict itself because Prov. 26:4 says "do not answer a fool according to his folly"
            ......but Prov. 26:5 says "answer a fool according to his folly"
            ......(Prov 18:17 alerts us to such contradictions when it says:
            ......"He that first states his own cause appears to be just,
            ......but his neighbor comes, and then it seems otherwise
            "

            (2b)It does contradict itself because Jesus says (Matt 12:30, Luke 11:23)"He that is not with me is against me"
            ......but also says (Mark 9:40, Luke 9:50) "He that is not against us is for us"

            (2c)It does contradict itself because I John 2:7 says "I am writing no new commandment to you"
            ......but I John 2:8 says instead "but I am writing a new commandment to you".

            (2d)It must contradict itself because Isaiah (55:9) says "For as the heavens are higher than the earth
            ......so are my thoughts higher than your thoughts, and my ways than your ways
            "

            and also, Jesus says (John 8:43)"Why do you not understand my speech? Because you cannot hear my word"
            and .......................(John 13:7)"What I am doing now you do not understand, but afterward you will understand"
            and .......................(Mark 4:, etc. etc.)(referencing Isaiah 6) "I teach in parables so they may see and not perceive, hear and not understand"


            Substantive answer:
            John is saying several different things,
            all of them true, but hard to understand
            and you have to keep them all in mind at once,
            though they seem to contradict each other

            John 1:5-2:2 states plainly that we are all sinners, ongoingly, and need to go to God for forgiveness, and keep going back to him.
            John furthermore says that if we don't acknowledge that we are deceiving ourselves and lying to and about God.

            1Jo 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.
            1Jo 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
            1Jo 1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
            1Jo 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
            1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
            1Jo 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
            1Jo 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
            1Jo 2:2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

            But as you say, I John 3:9 also says the opposite: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him;
            .................................................. ....................and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
            Furthermore I John 2:3-4 states this same opposite again "And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
            .................................................. ...................He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him"


            Reprise:
            The way that John writes in I John

            John (in I John) writes in a very categorical style. That is, he makes strong, extreme, sweeping statements.
            Then he makes other strong, extreme, sweeping statements which are in tensions with what he has just written,
            and sometimes the statements directly contradict one another.

            This style is like the style used in Prov. 26, of making 2 statements which contradict each other (side by side),
            like Jesus's articulation of contradictory aspects of things, given above,
            and is shown in a minor way in the direct contradiction between I John 2:7 and I John 2:8.

            The truths that we must grasp are larger truths than will fit into our way of thinking.
            They necessarily involve difficult-to-live-with tensions, from our point of view at least.
            The Bible, and specific authors within it give us these opposed truths (or "antinomies") because its by
            holding onto both parts, even though they are in severe tension, or contradict logically, that we come to see
            what it is that God is saying to us, which is something large, and difficult to grasp.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

              And that's another thing. Is making mistakes a sin? Somtimes people who say they are sinless might admit they make mistakes but say that's not a sin, is that correct?
              Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

                Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                Walley10, Paul was describing what it is like to be born again, want to not sin, and not know how --crucified with Christ. He said, 'how to perform that which is good, if find not'. People are told 100 ways to not sin, but they are not told to believe they are dead to sin and alive in Christ, as Paul said.
                So all I must do then to become sinless is just simply believe I am dead to my sin and I will not sin anymore? Like I said, I do not know if when you are born again you will become sinless, but I sure would like to be sinless.
                Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

                  1john 1:5 to 2:2 doesn't say we are sinners. He's addressing Gnosticism, not a need for contestant and continual confession.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

                    Certainly it is not my desire to sin, what I want to be doing is constantly seeking after God and learning his word. But the thing is, If at some point I do commit an act of sin, did it men I was not saved? That's what so confuses me. I really wish I knew which is true. I think both sides agree Jesus paid for all sin, but once you are saved, it's a matter of if it is even possible to sin. I remember a pastor named Paul Washer said if you took a camera and took on photo of his life where he sinned you would say he's not saved, but if you used a video camera and recorded his whole life is constant flow of life is seeking God. So he says it only means if you habitually, unremousefully sin? I don't know. I wish I was sinless though.
                    Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

                      As I said, I John 1:5-2:2 says, among other things, that if you think you are not a sinner, you are just kidding yourself.

                      We all sin (though of course it's important to try hard not to, and to try hard to walk with God)
                      and I John says that when we do sin, we have forgiveness and healing when we confess or sins to God.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

                        You're out of the context and purpose of the book Scruffy. Light/darkness, saved/lost, love/hate, brother/not a brother. The gnostics were deceiving them and causing them to err. That's in the book. They taught when you sinned you were still sinless, so it's OK to sin. John says it's a moot point because if you are born of God you won't have that attitude. He says do not sin, implying it is possible because God commands it, then says IF, not when, you sin. The issue is not, is forgiveness available if you agree with God that you sinned, the issue is.....as John repeated....you can know who is and is not by whether or not they are a sinner or son of God. Which BTW he said we are sons of God, not sinners. I suggest you re-read the book in its historical context, and purpose.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

                          Originally posted by Scruffy Kid View Post
                          As I said, I John 1:5-2:2 says, among other things, that if you think you are not a sinner, you are just kidding yourself.

                          We all sin (though of course it's important to try hard not to, and to try hard to walk with God)
                          and I John says that when we do sin, we have forgiveness and healing when we confess or sins to God.
                          I am really seeking answers on this, ya know. I mean as I have said I certainly do not want to sin. I want to make following and seeking Christ to be the practice of my life, but does that mean that if you sin at some point after you having faith in him, does it mean that you're not saved to begin with? If sinless perfection is possible then I want to have it, but I am just not sure what to believe in this area. Of course then there's Hebrews 12 which says God will correct you through conviction and chastise you if you sin, so that's another one that gets me confused. I have been getting very interested with sinlessness..
                          Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

                            Originally posted by Walley10 View Post
                            So all I must do then to become sinless is just simply believe I am dead to my sin and I will not sin anymore? Like I said, I do not know if when you are born again you will become sinless, but I sure would like to be sinless.
                            Yes, that is the way of escape God provided and determined to glorify his Son. Christ and him crucified/resurrected, the power of God.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Sinless Perfection 1 John 3:9?

                              Originally posted by Walley10 View Post
                              First of all, I am looking for something with more substance of "well we can never be perfect in this life". Second, I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that? Now I got frustrated at myself and even angry (I know THAT IS a sin!) at even the person writing the article because I do not want to "hate holiness" and although mistakes are not sins, that if you have ever sinned since salvation then you did not hate your sin or have conviction over it and I even prayed to Jesus that I do not want to be in sin and even asked God to make it impossible for me to sin but I am still frustrated. I still do not know if sinlessness is true or not. Because if it is then I want to get sinless. Often have I told God "I may fail you a lot in the future but please take these certain desires away".

                              I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?
                              That verse cannot be used to promote the idea that being born of God means you will be sinless because that would contradict what John wrote here:

                              1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

                              This is addressed to believers who have been born of God and it indicates that for us to say that we don't sin would mean we are deceiving ourselves and making God a liar. He also said that if we confess our sins God will forgive us. So, it's clearly implied here that believers are not expected to be sinless after they are saved. The idea that we need to be a sinless turns salvation into a case of us saving ourselves by our own righteousness rather than being saved by way of trusting in Christ and His righteousness.

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