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Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

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  • Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

    I've been told by a member of this board that absolutely no one on this board believes there are any consequences for disobedience. This is not a pole about what the consequences may or may not look like but simply if there are consequences or not. Feel free to post Scripture in support of your answer.
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  • #2
    Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

    “For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man” (Romans 7:22).

    “I myself with my mind am serving the law of God” (Romans 7:25).

    “The mind set on the flesh…does not subject itself to the law of God” (Romans 8:7).

    “…though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ” (1 Cor. 9:21).

    “But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken” (Matthew 12:36).

    “For the son of man is going to come in the glory of his Father with his angels and will then repay every man according to his deeds” (Matthew 16:27).

    “I am he who searches hearts and minds and I will repay each of you according to your deeds” (Rev. 2:23).

    “God will give to each according to what he has done” (Romans 2:6).

    “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” (2 Cor. 5:10).

    “Each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

      Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
      I've been told by a member of this board that absolutely no one on this board believes there are any consequences for disobedience. This is not a pole about what the consequences may or may not look like but simply if there are consequences or not. Feel free to post Scripture in support of your answer.
      The Poll is a bit of a curved ball. In the Poll and Title you speak of "God's Law". By multiple scriptures, God's Law is the Law of Moses (Ex.16:28 etc.). In your preamble you speak generally of "disobedience". The Christian is not subject to the Law of Moses, but very subject to the circa 2'400 commands of the New Testament, with dire consequences for disobeying them (1st Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5-7).

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

        Originally posted by Walls View Post
        The Poll is a bit of a curved ball. In the Poll and Title you speak of "God's Law". By multiple scriptures, God's Law is the Law of Moses (Ex.16:28 etc.).
        If God’s Law is the Law of Moses, what is the “law of God” Paul speaks of (Romans 7:22, 25; 8:7; 1 Cor. 9:21)?

        In your preamble you speak generally of "disobedience". The Christian is not subject to the Law of Moses,
        Can you provide Scripture that says Jewish Christians should not obey the Law of Moses? We see in Acts that the Jerusalem Jews continued obeying the Law of Moses.

        but very subject to the circa 2'400 commands of the New Testament, with dire consequences for disobeying them (1st Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5-7).
        Thank you for the Scripture. Would you say that Christians are invited to live at a higher standard than the Law of Moses calls for?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

          Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
          If God’s Law is the Law of Moses, what is the “law of God” Paul speaks of (Romans 7:22, 25; 8:7; 1 Cor. 9:21)?
          In Romans Chapter 7 Paul speaks of the inability of any man to keep the Laws of God because of the law of sin and death in his members.

          In 1st Corinthians Chapter 9 Paul says that for the sake of the Gospel he will adapt to the condition of the hearer, but without subjecting himself to the Law. Paul did this in Acts 16:1-5 when he circumcised Timothy. The circumcision of Timothy had no value before God (Gal.5:5, 6:15). It was purely a maneuver to get the Jews to take him seriously.

          Can you provide Scripture that says Jewish Christians should not obey the Law of Moses? We see in Acts that the Jerusalem Jews continued obeying the Law of Moses.
          OK. First, while there might be a Christian holding a Jewish passport, there is no such thing as a Christian Jew in the Church (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11). The Church, or the New Man, is constituted from the "twain" (the nations, and the nation of Israel). In Ephesians 2:14-15 it is, "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

          Secondly, the practice of the First Church in Jerusalem to continue in the Law of Moses was, by the statement of the Apostles who were taught by Jesus Himself, declared erroneous (Acts.15:6-21; Gal.5:4). It was continued until our Lord allowed the armies of Titus to destroy the seat of Jewdom in 70 AD. The writings of Paul are comprehensive in this matter. But I will grant that the power of the Jewish tradition was very strong among Jewish converts. It led two pillars of the Church into difficulties. Peter into sin (Gal.2:11-16), and Paul fell too in that he went back to Jerusalem against a twofold witness of accredited prophets, and his ministry of building Churches was over (Act.21:4, 8-11).

          Thank you for the Scripture. Would you say that Christians are invited to live at a higher standard than the Law of Moses calls for?
          Much higher. The requirements of a New Testament believer are based on the availability of the Holy Spirit dwelling in his/her spirit, with all the resources of Christ at his/her disposal. Example;
          • To the Jew, "love your neighbor as yourself" (Gal.5:4)
          • To the Christian "love... as I (Jesus) have loved you" (Jn.13:34, 15:12)


          "Phew!"


          The whole so-called Sermon on the Mount addresses those whose God is "your Father." "Your Father in heaven" assumes the rebirth. God cannot be "your Father" if you were not born from Him.

          Hope this helps.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

            Yes, I do believe that there are consequences for disobedience to God's laws and commands.

            I believe that the new covenant is that the law will be written upon our hearts and in our minds. Through Christ, the law can be fulfilled in our lives, so that it is no longer just outwardly, but also from the heart as well.
            Hebrews 8:9-11
            9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
            10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
            11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

              Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
              I've been told by a member of this board that absolutely no one on this board believes there are any consequences for disobedience. This is not a pole about what the consequences may or may not look like but simply if there are consequences or not. Feel free to post Scripture in support of your answer.
              Whoever told you that does not know what they are talking about and they apparently don't know the scriptures either...............
              My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

              "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                In Romans Chapter 7 Paul speaks of the inability of any man to keep the Laws of God because of the law of sin and death in his members.
                So, now it’s okay to break God’s Law/commandments? Paul refers to the inability of the Law and then specifies that the Law’s inability actually stems from the inability of the flesh, not from any defect in the Law.

                And that didn’t answer my question which was, “If God’s Law is the Law of Moses, what is the “law of God” Paul speaks of (Romans 7:22, 25; 8:7; 1 Cor. 9:21)?” Although Paul spoke of the inability of the flesh, these Scriptures show that he continued to subject himself to the Law of God:

                “For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man” (Romans 7:22).

                “I myself with my mind am serving the law of God” (Romans 7:25).

                “The mind set on the flesh…does not subject itself to the law of God” (Romans 8:7).

                “…though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ” (1 Cor. 9:21).

                In 1st Corinthians Chapter 9 Paul says that for the sake of the Gospel he will adapt to the condition of the hearer, but without subjecting himself to the Law.
                In the above Scriptures, Paul confirms that he was subject to the Law of God, so you must be mistaken in your interpretation.

                “For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law” (1 Cor. 9:20). The above Scriptures say that Paul was SUBJECT to the Law of God. Therefore, “under the Law” and “subject to the Law” must be two very different things.

                “All who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law” (Rom. 2:12).
                “But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law” (Gal. 3:23).
                “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law” (Gal. 5:18).
                “You have been severed from Christ you who are seeking to be justified by Law” (Gal. 5:4).

                When Paul says he became like those “under the Law” though not being “under the Law,” it means that although he knew that he was not judged by the Law, that he was not in custody under the Law, that he was not seeking to be justified by the Law, he became as though he were for the sake of those still in that mindset. It didn’t mean he wasn’t subject to the Law. It can’t, because he testifies that he was subject to the Law (Romans 7:22, 25; 8:7; 1 Cor. 9:21).

                God’s people weren’t redeemed from the Law, they were redeemed from the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:13). “For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse” (Gal. 3:10).

                The Law was never a curse, but those who continued to break God’s Law would be cursed. So, those who continue to rely on their own ability to keep the Law (Gal. 3:10; 5:4) are under a curse. Paul was not “under the Law” in that sense, but he continued to subject himself to God’s holy Law because it is holy and good and righteous (Rom. 7:12).

                Paul did this in Acts 16:1-5 when he circumcised Timothy. The circumcision of Timothy had no value before God (Gal.5:5, 6:15). It was purely a maneuver to get the Jews to take him seriously.
                Yes, but not because Paul wasn’t subject to the Law. The Jews for whom Paul did this were still in the mindset that one cannot be justified before God unless circumcised. Paul didn’t want to alienate them, so he “became a slave to them” for the sake of the Gospel and had Timothy circumcised.

                Paul had Timothy circumcised yet Timothy was not “severed from Christ,” because his circumcision had nothing to do with seeking to be justified by the Law (Gal 5:4). This alone should prove that circumcision has value.

                Circumcision has value, but it means nothing in terms of justification (Gal. 5:6). Does circumcision have value? Paul says it does. Paul says the benefit of circumcision is great in every aspect. “What is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every aspect” (Romans 3:1-2).

                OK. First, while there might be a Christian holding a Jewish passport, there is no such thing as a Christian Jew in the Church (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11)…
                Are there males in the church? Are there females in the church?

                You’ve given Scripture which demonstrates that we all come to God on the same terms: faith in God through Christ Jesus. Males continue to males. Females continue to be females. Jews continue to be Jews. And Gentiles continue to be Gentiles. But nothing inherent any male, female, Jew or Gentile gives him/her unique access to God.

                Secondly, the practice of the First Church in Jerusalem to continue in the Law of Moses was, by the statement of the Apostles who were taught by Jesus Himself, declared erroneous (Acts.15:6-21; Gal.5:4).
                Erroneous? There’s nothing in the text in Acts that says following the Law of Moses is erroneous. Paste the text here if you think it is so. Galatians 5:4 doesn’t say that following the Law of Moses is erroneous, it says that if you seek to be justified by the Law of Moses you have been severed from Christ.

                …and Paul fell too in that he went back to Jerusalem against a twofold witness of accredited prophets, and his ministry of building Churches was over (Act.21:4, 8-11).
                Paul wasn’t in danger of Peter, James and the rest of the Jerusalem believers, so what are you talking about?

                Paul was in danger of the Jews who had rejected Christ and didn’t like that he was proclaiming salvation to Gentiles outside of becoming proselytes. Paul’s defense before the Jews was going just fine until he uttered these words, “And He said to me, ‘Go! For I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’” Luke reports, “They listened to him up to this statement and then they raised their voices and said, ‘Away with such a fellow from the earth, for he should not be allowed to live!’” (Acts 22:21-22).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

                  Jesus gave us two commandments that cover all the law: love God, and love thy neighbor. It would be breaking God's law to not forgive someone. I know there is a consequence for not forgiving someone.

                  Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

                    Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
                    So, now it’s okay to break God’s Law/commandments? Paul refers to the inability of the Law and then specifies that the Law’s inability actually stems from the inability of the flesh, not from any defect in the Law.

                    And that didn’t answer my question which was, “If God’s Law is the Law of Moses, what is the “law of God” Paul speaks of (Romans 7:22, 25; 8:7; 1 Cor. 9:21)?” Although Paul spoke of the inability of the flesh, these Scriptures show that he continued to subject himself to the Law of God:

                    “For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man” (Romans 7:22).

                    “I myself with my mind am serving the law of God” (Romans 7:25).

                    “The mind set on the flesh…does not subject itself to the law of God” (Romans 8:7).

                    “…though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ” (1 Cor. 9:21).

                    In the above Scriptures, Paul confirms that he was subject to the Law of God, so you must be mistaken in your interpretation.

                    “For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law” (1 Cor. 9:20). The above Scriptures say that Paul was SUBJECT to the Law of God. Therefore, “under the Law” and “subject to the Law” must be two very different things.

                    “All who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law” (Rom. 2:12).
                    “But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law” (Gal. 3:23).
                    “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law” (Gal. 5:18).
                    “You have been severed from Christ you who are seeking to be justified by Law” (Gal. 5:4).

                    When Paul says he became like those “under the Law” though not being “under the Law,” it means that although he knew that he was not judged by the Law, that he was not in custody under the Law, that he was not seeking to be justified by the Law, he became as though he were for the sake of those still in that mindset. It didn’t mean he wasn’t subject to the Law. It can’t, because he testifies that he was subject to the Law (Romans 7:22, 25; 8:7; 1 Cor. 9:21).

                    God’s people weren’t redeemed from the Law, they were redeemed from the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:13). “For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse” (Gal. 3:10).

                    The Law was never a curse, but those who continued to break God’s Law would be cursed. So, those who continue to rely on their own ability to keep the Law (Gal. 3:10; 5:4) are under a curse. Paul was not “under the Law” in that sense, but he continued to subject himself to God’s holy Law because it is holy and good and righteous (Rom. 7:12).

                    Yes, but not because Paul wasn’t subject to the Law. The Jews for whom Paul did this were still in the mindset that one cannot be justified before God unless circumcised. Paul didn’t want to alienate them, so he “became a slave to them” for the sake of the Gospel and had Timothy circumcised.

                    Paul had Timothy circumcised yet Timothy was not “severed from Christ,” because his circumcision had nothing to do with seeking to be justified by the Law (Gal 5:4). This alone should prove that circumcision has value.

                    Circumcision has value, but it means nothing in terms of justification (Gal. 5:6). Does circumcision have value? Paul says it does. Paul says the benefit of circumcision is great in every aspect. “What is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every aspect” (Romans 3:1-2).

                    Are there males in the church? Are there females in the church?

                    You’ve given Scripture which demonstrates that we all come to God on the same terms: faith in God through Christ Jesus. Males continue to males. Females continue to be females. Jews continue to be Jews. And Gentiles continue to be Gentiles. But nothing inherent any male, female, Jew or Gentile gives him/her unique access to God.

                    Erroneous? There’s nothing in the text in Acts that says following the Law of Moses is erroneous. Paste the text here if you think it is so. Galatians 5:4 doesn’t say that following the Law of Moses is erroneous, it says that if you seek to be justified by the Law of Moses you have been severed from Christ.

                    Paul wasn’t in danger of Peter, James and the rest of the Jerusalem believers, so what are you talking about?

                    Paul was in danger of the Jews who had rejected Christ and didn’t like that he was proclaiming salvation to Gentiles outside of becoming proselytes. Paul’s defense before the Jews was going just fine until he uttered these words, “And He said to me, ‘Go! For I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’” Luke reports, “They listened to him up to this statement and then they raised their voices and said, ‘Away with such a fellow from the earth, for he should not be allowed to live!’” (Acts 22:21-22).
                    OK my brother. I could approach this two ways. I can enter into discussion point for point and we would go back and forth until an answer will fill a book. If you think that Romans Chapter 7 is a call to Christians to keep the Law, despite the context of those verses, and the context of Romans, and all the other scriptures to the contrary, in Romans, and in the rest of the New Testament, be my guest. Just remember that you must go down to Jerusalem three times a year with the tithe of your produce from the Good Land wrapped up in your hand. Remember to kill the Passover Lamb and not to touch your wife if she has an issue of blood for she is unclean. Remember too to bring your sin and trespass offerings to the Levite that is within your gate, and make sure that they have no blemishes. Remember too the that if you break even one of the 620 odd Laws you are cursed. And worst of all, remember that you have made the death of Christ of no effect and are fallen from grace.

                    And then, when you have kept the Law perfectly as Jesus did, remember that you are still unjustified in God's sight (Rom.3:20, Gal.2:16).

                    Or, I could advise you to read those verses you have given within their contexts, from the contexts of the books they are in, and from the context of the whole New Testament. I myself will not subject myself to one jot or tittle of the Law seeing as it has been nailed to the cross with Christ. I myself would never demean such a great thing as the death of our Lord by making it of no effect. If you are still intent on keeping one little Law, know that the following apply to you:
                    • "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free,
                    • and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
                    • Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
                    • For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
                    • Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;
                    • ye are fallen from grace"

                    (Gal.5:1-4).

                    Finally, it might pay to be precise with God's Word. It is a matter of life and death. Below is what you wrote and below that what God wrote. Spot the difference....?

                    Lookingup says;
                    The Law was never a curse, but those who continued to break God’s Law would be cursed. So, those who continue to rely on their own ability to keep the Law (Gal. 3:10; 5:4) are under a curse. Paul was not “under the Law” in that sense, but he continued to subject himself to God’s holy Law because it is holy and good and righteous (Rom. 7:12).
                    God says;
                    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Gal.3:10
                    1. There is nothing in Galatians 3:10 and 5:4 that alludes to your ability
                    2. There is nothing in Galatians 3:10 and 5:4 that alludes to your reliance on your ability
                    3. There is nothing in Galatians 3:10 and 5:4 that speaks of "continue to break God's Law." The first Law broken breaks the whole Law and you have overthrown the Covenant of Sinai. You are fully a Law-breaker and a Covenant-breaker. When Moses descends from the Mount and is met by just two sins, he breaks both Tables of Law, or the whole Law.
                    4. It is true that that Law was never a curse. But who said it was?
                    5. It is true that the Law is not a curse, but cursed are you if you continue in it and break just one of its smallest ordinances.
                    6. Paul was either under the Law or not. There is no middle ground. God says that if you are of the Law you are cursed, and if you are of the Law you must keep the whole Law.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

                      Originally posted by Walls View Post
                      OK my brother. I could approach this two ways. I can enter into discussion point for point and we would go back and forth until an answer will fill a book.
                      Sorry, but that sounds like a cop out.

                      If you think that Romans Chapter 7 is a call to Christians to keep the Law,…
                      I didn’t say that. But Peter, James and all the Jerusalem Jews continued to keep the Law and no one seemed too upset about that. They kept on circumcising their babies and following the Mosaic Law. Hmm…

                      and all the other scriptures to the contrary,
                      Waiting…

                      …And worst of all, remember that you have made the death of Christ of no effect and are fallen from grace…

                      I myself would never demean such a great thing…

                      if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing…

                      every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
                      Poor Timothy, then, eh?

                      Finally, it might pay to be precise with God's Word. It is a matter of life and death.
                      As you will see below, you may want to heed your own words.

                      Below is what you wrote and below that what God wrote. Spot the difference....?
                      No, there is no difference. Below is what I wrote and below that what God wrote. Spot how wrong you are?

                      I said:
                      “The Law was never a curse, but those who continued to break God’s Law would be cursed. So, those who continue to rely on their own ability to keep the Law (Gal. 3:10; 5:4) are under a curse. Paul was not “under the Law” in that sense, but he continued to subject himself to God’s holy Law because it is holy and good and righteous (Rom. 7:12).”

                      God said:

                      All those who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse, because it is written, #ibEveryone is cursed who does not keep on doing all the things that have been written in the Law scroll#ie. CEB

                      All those who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse, because it is written, #ibEveryone is cursed who does not keep on doing all the things that have been written in the Law scroll#ie. CEBA

                      For all who [rely on] the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law. CSB

                      For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." ESV

                      For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law." NRS

                      For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law." NRSA

                      For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." RSV

                      For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." RSVA

                      There is nothing in Galatians 3:10 and 5:4 that alludes to your reliance on your ability
                      Think again. FOR ALL WHO RELY ON WORKS ARE UNDER A CURSE.

                      Gal. 5:4
                      You have been severed from Christ you who are SEEKING TO BE JUSTIFIED by Law

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

                        Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
                        Sorry, but that sounds like a cop out.
                        That is a strange accusation from one who ignored the following quotes of mine;

                        "OK. First, while there might be a Christian holding a Jewish passport, there is no such thing as a Christian Jew in the Church (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11). The Church, or the New Man, is constituted from the "twain" (the nations, and the nation of Israel). In Ephesians 2:14-15 it is, "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

                        And again;

                        "OK my brother. I could approach this two ways. I can enter into discussion point for point and we would go back and forth until an answer will fill a book. If you think that Romans Chapter 7 is a call to Christians to keep the Law, despite the context of those verses, and the context of Romans, and all the other scriptures to the contrary, in Romans, and in the rest of the New Testament, be my guest. Just remember that you must go down to Jerusalem three times a year with the tithe of your produce from the Good Land wrapped up in your hand. Remember to kill the Passover Lamb and not to touch your wife if she has an issue of blood for she is unclean. Remember too to bring your sin and trespass offerings to the Levite that is within your gate, and make sure that they have no blemishes. Remember too the that if you break even one of the 620 odd Laws you are cursed. And worst of all, remember that you have made the death of Christ of no effect and are fallen from grace."

                        I didn’t say that. But Peter, James and all the Jerusalem Jews continued to keep the Law and no one seemed too upset about that. They kept on circumcising their babies and following the Mosaic Law. Hmm…
                        We obviously have a different approach to the tone of Galatians. It is noteworthy that a New Testament Christian, who is an ambassador of reconciliation (2nd Cor.5:18-19) would desire that someone be "cut off" (Gal.5:12). I would term that "quite upset."

                        Waiting…
                        Ac 13:39 "And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

                        Ac 15:24 "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"

                        Ro 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

                        Ro 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

                        Ro 4:14 "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:"

                        Ro 7:4 "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

                        Ro 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

                        Ro 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

                        Gal 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

                        Gal 2:21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

                        Gal 3:2 "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

                        Gal 3:5 "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

                        Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

                        Gal 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

                        Gal 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

                        Gal 3:18 "For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."

                        Gal 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

                        Gal 5:4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

                        Gal 5:18 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

                        Eph 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

                        Php 3:9 "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

                        Tit 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

                        Heb 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

                        Heb 7:16 "Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life."

                        Heb 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

                        Heb 10:1 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."

                        Heb 10:8 "Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;"

                        Jas 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

                        The question that now springs to mind is; If you knew all these verses and never addressed them in your posting, is your motive pure?

                        Poor Timothy, then, eh?
                        The end of the matter of Timothy's circumcision was, "And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily." (Acts 16:5). But you did not address the reason I gave for this circumcision. It was not to fulfill the Law. What say you?

                        As you will see below, you may want to heed your own words.

                        No, there is no difference. Below is what I wrote and below that what God wrote. Spot how wrong you are?

                        I said:
                        “The Law was never a curse, but those who continued to break God’s Law would be cursed. So, those who continue to rely on their own ability to keep the Law (Gal. 3:10; 5:4) are under a curse. Paul was not “under the Law” in that sense, but he continued to subject himself to God’s holy Law because it is holy and good and righteous (Rom. 7:12).”

                        God said:

                        All those who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse, because it is written, #ibEveryone is cursed who does not keep on doing all the things that have been written in the Law scroll#ie. CEB...... etc.
                        Even if we concede to using non-literal translation, "to rely on their own ability", is not the same as, "who rely on the works". If English is not your mother tongue, and you need proof, I'm sure some of the posters will confirm what I say.

                        But well has Paul said in Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." As I said in my previous post, each man is responsible for himself and also what he teaches. You keep the Law of Moses and I will flee it. You teach other men on this Forum to keep it, I teach other men that it is annulled, over, past, nailed to the cross, abolished. May the Great Judge judge each of us on that great and fateful day on what we taught and what we did.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

                          Originally posted by Walls View Post
                          That is a strange accusation from one who ignored the following quotes of mine;
                          Seriously? This shows you didn’t carefully read through my previous post. I specifically addressed these. Read post #8 again and you will see.

                          We obviously have a different approach to the tone of Galatians. It is noteworthy that a New Testament Christian, who is an ambassador of reconciliation (2nd Cor.5:18-19) would desire that someone be "cut off" (Gal.5:12). I would term that "quite upset."
                          Different approach, indeed. I’ve never met a Christian who thought Peter, James and the entire Jerusalem church were “cut off.”

                          Ac 13:39 "And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."
                          Where does this Scripture say that Peter and James should have stopped following the customs of Moses?

                          Ac 15:24 "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"
                          This is for Gentiles. “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles” (Acts 15:19). Where does this Scripture say that the Jerusalem Jews should stop following Moses?

                          Ro 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
                          Where does this Scripture say that the Jerusalem Jews should stop following Moses?

                          Ro 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
                          Where does this Scripture say that the Jerusalem Jews should stop following Moses?

                          Ro 4:14 "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:"
                          Where does this Scripture say that the Jerusalem Jews should stop following Moses?

                          Ro 7:4 "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."
                          Ro 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
                          This is about jurisdiction (Romans 7:1). The curse has been lifted and can no longer condemn. The Jerusalem Jews freely obeyed the Law of Moses without fear of the curses that follow those who are unable to keep the Law without fail.

                          Ro 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
                          End of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. It doesn’t say it’s the end of the law.

                          Gal 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
                          Where does this Scripture say that the Jerusalem Jews should stop following Moses?

                          Gal 2:21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
                          Where does this Scripture say that the Jerusalem Jews should stop following Moses?

                          Gal 3:2 "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
                          Gal 3:5 "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
                          Jews were trying to get Gentiles to circumcise themselves to be accepted by God. Paul said this wasn’t necessary. Again, absolutely nothing here about the Jews needing to reverse their circumcision (i.e. discard Mosaic Law). On the contrary, Paul says, “Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised” (1 Cor. 7:18). Circumcision is nothing in terms of justification (Gal. 5:4, 6). But circumcision is not without value. “What is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect” (Romans 3:1-2).

                          Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."
                          Right. If you rely on the Law for justification, you’re under a curse.

                          Gal 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."
                          Nothing here about discarding Moses.

                          Gal 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"
                          Yep, no more curses. Doesn’t say “no more law.”

                          Gal 3:18 "For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."
                          Gal 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."
                          The Sinai Covenant (“the Law”) and what was known as “the Law” in total (including curses) is no longer. But God always intended to write His Law on the hearts of His people. That’s what the new covenant is about (I can give Scripture if you’re unfamiliar with this). What’s not “in effect” are the curses. What is “in effect” are the commandments of God.

                          Gal 5:4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
                          Those who want to be “justified by the law” have fallen from grace.

                          Gal 5:18 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
                          Yep. Peter, James and all the Jerusalem Jews continued to follow the Law. Not because they were “under the Law” but because they were “subject to the Law.” We’re all subject to God’s commands.

                          Eph 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"
                          Yep, the ENMITY.

                          Php 3:9 "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

                          Tit 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

                          Heb 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

                          Heb 7:16 "Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life."

                          Heb 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

                          Heb 10:1 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."

                          Heb 10:8 "Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;"

                          Jas 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
                          I’m in a hurry, so I’m gonna have to sum this up quickly. Bottom line, Jews were never asked to stop obeying the Law of Moses. Gentiles were NEVER asked to follow the Law of Moses. They were asked to fear God and obey all that relates to Gentiles.

                          The question that now springs to mind is; If you knew all these verses and never addressed them in your posting, is your motive pure?
                          I don’t appreciate what you’re insinuating. You’ve thrown up a bunch of Scripture, none of which says that Jews must stop obeying the Law of Moses.

                          The end of the matter of Timothy's circumcision was, "And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily." (Acts 16:5). But you did not address the reason I gave for this circumcision. It was not to fulfill the Law. What say you?
                          The point is, anyone can continue in the Law of Moses for reasons other than desiring to be justified by it.

                          Even if we concede to using non-literal translation, "to rely on their own ability", is not the same as, "who rely on the works". If English is not your mother tongue, and you need proof, I'm sure some of the posters will confirm what I say.
                          Again, you’re out of line. But what do you care, there are no consequences for disobeying the commands of God.

                          But well has Paul said in Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."
                          There’s no striving on my end. Maybe yours?

                          As I said in my previous post, each man is responsible for himself and also what he teaches. You keep the Law of Moses and I will flee it. You teach other men on this Forum to keep it, I teach other men that it is annulled, over, past, nailed to the cross, abolished. May the Great Judge judge each of us on that great and fateful day on what we taught and what we did.
                          I’ll let Jesus answer that:
                          “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:19).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

                            I am stunned that such a question can even arise here.

                            Am I getting a glimpse of the "Emergent Church?"
                            Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
                            George Orwell

                            www.r2ucv.com



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Are there consequences for disobeying God's Law?

                              Originally posted by Raybob View Post
                              Jesus gave us two commandments that cover all the law: love God, and love thy neighbor. It would be breaking God's law to not forgive someone. I know there is a consequence for not forgiving someone.

                              Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
                              Ahhh, simplicity. I see no one addressed your post but the fact of the matter is these two all-encompassing commandments supersede everything else. If we're practicing The Great Commandment (Mt. 22: 37-39) then everything else falls in place.
                              I know what I know
                              I know what I don't know
                              I don't know what I don't know.

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