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Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

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  • Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

    Rom 3:12
    They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Rom 11:32
    For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


    Seems to me that if we are saved by our own faith or our own works, we would all be in trouble because nobody's work or faith meets God's standard. The other option is that it is by God's grace through the work and faith of His only begotten son.

  • #2
    Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

    We are saved by obeying the commandments of the Christ in the Gospels. Any interpretation of any other book of the Bible that contradicts one of Christ's commandments is false.

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    • #3
      Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

      Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

        I would say neither... we are saved by God's grace alone. Yes, he applies that grace to us when we come in faith, but it isn't the faith that saves, it is Him extending favor to us we don't deserve. Blessings!

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        • #5
          Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

          Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
          Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
          .................................................. .......................: :
          Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

            I think James says it best. James 2: 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

            I believe that's where the coined saying, "faith without works is dead" came from.
            I know what I know
            I know what I don't know
            I don't know what I don't know.

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            • #7
              Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

              Originally posted by RabbiKnife
              Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
              2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

              Why does everyone quote verses 8-9, but conveniently leave out verse 10? In Paul's thought, 'good works' are a necessary and vital outflow of 'faith'. Good trees make good fruit. Can't find any good fruit? Maybe the good tree is missing.
              To This Day

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              • #8
                Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

                God's grace is for all, but the method of delivery is via faith. There are many who are headed to destruction because they don't accept His method. Without faith there is no appropriation of grace. It is like creation. God the Father created through the Son.
                We have to accept His way every day.

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                • #9
                  Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

                  Why faith or works only? Why not hope?

                  Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

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                  • #10
                    Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

                    Originally posted by markedward View Post
                    2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

                    Why does everyone quote verses 8-9, but conveniently leave out verse 10? In Paul's thought, 'good works' are a necessary and vital outflow of 'faith'. Good trees make good fruit. Can't find any good fruit? Maybe the good tree is missing.
                    Probably because the fruit is a product, not a cause.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

                      Originally posted by rom826 View Post
                      Rom 3:12
                      They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

                      Rom 11:32
                      For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


                      Seems to me that if we are saved by our own faith or our own works, we would all be in trouble because nobody's work or faith meets God's standard.
                      This is what you are concluding from those verses you quoted? Can you show exactly how those verses are leading you to this conclusion?

                      Why would God command us to repent and to believe the gospel (Acts 17:30-31, Mark 1:15, etc.) if we can't meet His standard? Is He telling us to do something that we can't actually do? I don't see how that makes any sense. It has to be our own faith. The verses you quoted aren't saying that we are incapable of believing the gospel. Those verses show how we tend to go astray in the absence of something to make us aware of our lost condition, which is what the gospel does for us. It teaches people that they are sinners and are in need of a Savior to save them from the penalty of their sin and that they need to repent and believe in Christ in order to be saved. Once people are informed of their condition then they have to choose how to respond and there's nothing to indicate that people don't have the ability to respond with their own repentance and faith.

                      The other option is that it is by God's grace through the work and faith of His only begotten son.
                      How can that be when scripture is clear that we are responsible to believe in Christ? It has to be our faith since scripture repeatedly indicates that we are responsible to believe from our own hearts.

                      Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

                      This clearly speaks of something we have to do (confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead) so how does it make sense to suggest that it's something Jesus does instead? It has to be our faith because God makes us responsible to believe in our hearts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

                        Originally posted by RabbiKnife View Post
                        Probably because the fruit is a product, not a cause.
                        Right. That verse (Eph 2:10) is speaking of good works that we do after we become saved by grace through faith in Christ. Once the Spirit has come to dwell in us then we are equipped to do the good works God has for us to do. Without the Holy Spirit's power we couldn't do those things that He has for us to do.

                        Here are the capabilities of those who aren't saved when it comes to bearing fruit and doing the good works God has for His people to do:

                        John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

                        Here is the condition of those who are saved:

                        Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

                        Without Christ we can do nothing. With Christ we can do all things.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

                          To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

                          By what means did God through the Son of God bring that about?

                          By grace through the faith.

                          Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Son of the Living God; Learned, and was obedient unto death even the death of the cross, becoming sin for us. That was, "the faith," of Eph. 2:8 that was the, "obedience of faith," of Rom. 1:5 & 16:26
                          God the Father of Jesus the Christ raised the dead Jesus from the dead unto life, never to die again. Gal. 1:1 That is the grace of Eph. 2:8 We by the gift of the Holy Spirit become heirs of that same grace of life. 1 Peter 3:7 God the Father in raising Jesus from the dead by his Holy Spirit renewed Jesus with the Holy Spirit, Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, witch could then be shed on us;

                          And Noeb is correct that gift of the Spirit shed abundantly on us, then gives us the hope of that same life eternal. Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

                          That same Spirit also begins to create us in Christ Jesus unto good works.


                          I can produce scripture for all I wrote.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

                            Originally posted by markedward View Post
                            2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

                            Why does everyone quote verses 8-9, but conveniently leave out verse 10? In Paul's thought, 'good works' are a necessary and vital outflow of 'faith'. Good trees make good fruit. Can't find any good fruit? Maybe the good tree is missing.
                            Because works follow faith just as verse 10 follows verses 8 & 9. Gotta have the "tree" of faith before you can have the "fruit" of works and you have to have the "grace" of the seed and the soil" before you can have the tree.

                            No one is denying there are works we should do.
                            I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                            - Mahatma Gandhi



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                            • #15
                              Re: Are we saved by faith or by works? ..... or neither?

                              Originally posted by John146 View Post
                              This is what you are concluding from those verses you quoted? Can you show exactly how those verses are leading you to this conclusion?

                              Why would God command us to repent and to believe the gospel (Acts 17:30-31, Mark 1:15, etc.) if we can't meet His standard? Is He telling us to do something that we can't actually do? I don't see how that makes any sense. It has to be our own faith. The verses you quoted aren't saying that we are incapable of believing the gospel. Those verses show how we tend to go astray in the absence of something to make us aware of our lost condition, which is what the gospel does for us. It teaches people that they are sinners and are in need of a Savior to save them from the penalty of their sin and that they need to repent and believe in Christ in order to be saved. Once people are informed of their condition then they have to choose how to respond and there's nothing to indicate that people don't have the ability to respond with their own repentance and faith.

                              How can that be when scripture is clear that we are responsible to believe in Christ? It has to be our faith since scripture repeatedly indicates that we are responsible to believe from our own hearts.

                              Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

                              This clearly speaks of something we have to do (confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead) so how does it make sense to suggest that it's something Jesus does instead? It has to be our faith because God makes us responsible to believe in our hearts.
                              John is that something we can do in order that God will give us the Holy Spirit? Or would that be something that we could do because God through the Holy Spirit has translated us from unbelief unto belief.

                              1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

                              1 Peter 1:21,22 Who by him (Jesus) do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. (How?) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

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