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What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

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  • What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

    "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you." (15:16)

    Is this is statement made only to Jesus's disciples (at that time) or the rest of the us who are believers? Are we chosen first or do we have to first choose? It reads like we're chosen first.

    "They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me." (16:3)

    I thought everyone knew God so there are no excuses, right? Is Jesus not suggesting here that there are those who don't know God?








    I know what I know
    I know what I don't know
    I don't know what I don't know.

  • #2
    Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

    Originally posted by Nick View Post
    "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you." (15:16)

    Is this is statement made only Jesus's disciples (at that time) or the rest of the us who are believers? Are we chosen first or do we have to first choose? It reads like we're chosen first.

    "They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me." (16:3)

    I thought everyone knew God so there are no excuses, right? Is Jesus not suggesting here that there are those who don't know God?







    John 6:44 says that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. Add that into the mix Nick... but after that I am out of this one. It will become another free will/predestination debate which in the end is fruitless. Obviously both positions exists in Scripture, the goal is through prayer to wait on God to reconcile them. I believe I understand it now, but I think each has to come to their own conclusion. Blessings!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

      Originally posted by Nick View Post
      "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you." (15:16)

      Is this is statement made only Jesus's disciples (at that time) or the rest of the us who are believers? Are we chosen first or do we have to first choose? It reads like we're chosen first.

      "They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me." (16:3)

      I thought everyone knew God so there are no excuses, right? Is Jesus not suggesting here that there are those who don't know God?







      Jewish students of that day selected their rabbis or teachers. In this instance, the order was reversed, the teacher selected the students!

      There is no support here for the Calvinistic doctrine of arbitrary election. All that is taught here is that the apostles were called and chosen by the Lord. Also, we learn that the calling of disciples is by the gospel, the gospel is to be preached to all, all are called, those who respond are chosen, those who reject the gospel are lost. (2 Thess. 2:13; Mark 16:15, 16; Matt. 28:18-20.)

      The factor which determined the perpetuation of their election was their faithfulness. So it is today, all are called (Mark 16:15, 16); not all are chosen, because not all obey the gospel (Rom. 10:16). Some, like Demas (2 Tim. 4:10), forsake the Lord after they become followers. Only those who are faithful to the end of life are assured of the reward. "Behold then the goodness and severity of God, toward them that fell, severity, but toward thee, God's goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Rom. 11:22.) Also, refer to verse 19.

      They were chosen for the purpose of bearing fruit. What ever they asked in his name, they would receive. To ask in his name is to ask by his authority and in harmony with his will. Here the conditions are implied. (1 John 3:22; 4:6.)

      And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
      John 16:3 (KJV)

      Why men, who regarded themselves as highly religious and the guardians of the faith could possibly find it in their hearts to do that opposed to the most basic principles of religion and morality is because they knew neither the Father nor the Son, and had fallen into fatal error because of wilful blindness.

      (John 15:21) It is not meant that the Jews were not aware of the existence of God or, that they were not acquainted with Jesus. They Both knew in this, they were without a knowledge of the true nature of the Father and the Son, and they refused to consider the mission of Jesus. Here, as in John 15:22, their condemnation did not result from any want of information as to the identity of the Father and the Son, but to a wilful rejection of the true knowledge of them when it was offered to them. They had chosen darkness instead of light and their ignorance was deliberate and wilful.
      All scripture quoted from KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

        Originally posted by Nick View Post
        "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you." (15:16)

        Is this is statement made only to Jesus's disciples (at that time)
        or the rest of the us who are believers?

        I believe it was a statement made to His disciples (at that time)
        , because verse 27 says, "And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning." Not that we should not take principles from it (the context; of which we can then apply, in some measure, to ourselves). John 6:70 is one place where it shows He had "chosen you twelve..." (to be His disciples).

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

          Originally posted by LandShark View Post
          John 6:44 says that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. Add that into the mix Nick... but after that I am out of this one. It will become another free will/predestination debate which in the end is fruitless. Obviously both positions exists in Scripture, the goal is through prayer to wait on God to reconcile them. I believe I understand it now, but I think each has to come to their own conclusion. Blessings!
          Believe it or not, that has been my objective in addressing this issue. I think there are merits to both positions. They are not mutually exclusive as some would suggest. It doesn't have to be "this way or that" but there seems to be such overwhelming opposition to the predestination position.
          I know what I know
          I know what I don't know
          I don't know what I don't know.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

            Originally posted by Dilligence View Post
            There is no support here for the Calvinistic doctrine of arbitrary election. All that is taught here is that the apostles were called and chosen by the Lord.
            We should then assume ALL of what Jesus told or taught the disciples only applied to them or just parts of it? How do we know which teachings and statements were meant for them and not the masses? To Landshark's point (verse) above, if a man can't choose God until or unless God has first chosen him, and drawn him in grace to Himself (John 6:44), and if God does not draw all men equally, or offer the exact same opportunity to all men to be saved, then it would certainly seem that He is being partial, no? Why is it so easy to dismiss the alternative viewpoint? Rom 2:11 says "God does not show favoritism" or partiality. Can grace and partiality co-exist in the same sphere or it is impossible? Just because God extends His grace to some, does it require that He do it for everyone else?
            I know what I know
            I know what I don't know
            I don't know what I don't know.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

              Originally posted by Nick View Post
              "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you." (15:16)

              Is this is statement made only to Jesus's disciples (at that time) or the rest of the us who are believers? Are we chosen first or do we have to first choose? It reads like we're chosen first.
              This doesn't have anything to do with Him choosing us to believe and become saved while we have no choice in the matter. He was specifically speaking to the disciples there and talking about how they should go and bear fruit by way of preaching the gospel. They were chosen to be His closest disciples and to do the important work of preaching the gospel to the masses, starting in Israel, and making other disciples along the way. It was His choice to make those twelve His closest disciples, not theirs. Even Judas Iscariot was chosen, so Jesus didn't speak of being chosen in the sense of being chosen to believe and be saved.

              John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

              He chose them twelve in particular to be His closest followers. Has nothing to do with choosing them to be saved or else Judas Iscariot would've been saved.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

                Originally posted by Nick View Post
                To Landshark's point (verse) above, if a man can't choose God until or unless God has first chosen him, and drawn him in grace to Himself (John 6:44), and if God does not draw all men equally, or offer the exact same opportunity to all men to be saved, then it would certainly seem that He is being partial, no? Why is it so easy to dismiss the alternative viewpoint? Rom 2:11 says "God does not show favoritism" or partiality. Can grace and partiality co-exist in the same sphere or it is impossible? Just because God extends His grace to some, does it require that He do it for everyone else?
                No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day.

                Those who the Father draws to Christ are those who are influenced by Him to come. The means is the gospel which is intended to be preached to all. (Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:15, 16.) All are invited to come and those who do come to the Lord are those willing to respond to the gospel. (Matt. 11:28.) Some, like these unbelieving Jews, are not drawn, because they do not will to do so.

                It has been said that a magnet draws iron, but not all objects are drawn by magnets, because all are not iron. One must be of the right disposition and have the proper response to the drawing power of the Father which he exercises through the gospel. This is shown to be true in the verse following which Jesus supported by teaching from the prophets. (Isa. 54:13; Jer. 31:33, 34; Joel 3:16, 17; Micah 4:1.)

                For there is no respect of persons with God.
                Romans 2:11 (KJV)

                God does not deal with men by partiality, for one against another. "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:35.) To respect a person is to be partial to him on account of his family relationship, wealth, learning, social or political standing. As God does not respect persons, the Jew stands before Him on the same ground as the Greek. Without some new means of approach, he is lost. If he can be made to see the hopelessness of his trust in his being a son of Abraham, his circumcision, his legal religion, and the partiality of God, he will be prepared for the message of "justification through faith in Christ."
                All scripture quoted from KJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

                  Originally posted by Nick View Post
                  To Landshark's point (verse) above, if a man can't choose God until or unless God has first chosen him,
                  That isn't what Jesus was teaching in John 15:16 when it comes to choosing whether or not to believe in Christ, so do you have any other scriptural support for this?

                  and drawn him in grace to Himself (John 6:44), and if God does not draw all men equally,
                  Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself. Where does this concept of all not being drawn equally come from? You're either drawn or you're not and Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself (John 12:32).

                  or offer the exact same opportunity to all men to be saved, then it would certainly seem that He is being partial, no?
                  Scripture repeatedly says that He is not partial so why are you trying to find a way to make Him out to be partial?

                  Why is it so easy to dismiss the alternative viewpoint?
                  Because it doesn't line up with scripture.

                  Rom 2:11 says "God does not show favoritism" or partiality. Can grace and partiality co-exist in the same sphere or it is impossible?
                  Impossible, IMO.

                  Just because God extends His grace to some, does it require that He do it for everyone else?
                  I believe it is required in a sense because of who He is, which is a loving, impartial God. Also, scripture teaches that He extends His grace to all people.

                  Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

                    Originally posted by John146 View Post
                    This doesn't have anything to do with Him choosing us to believe and become saved while we have no choice in the matter. He was specifically speaking to the disciples there and talking about how they should go and bear fruit by way of preaching the gospel. They were chosen to be His closest disciples and to do the important work of preaching the gospel to the masses, starting in Israel, and making other disciples along the way. It was His choice to make those twelve His closest disciples, not theirs. Even Judas Iscariot was chosen, so Jesus didn't speak of being chosen in the sense of being chosen to believe and be saved.

                    John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

                    He chose them twelve in particular to be His closest followers. Has nothing to do with choosing them to be saved or else Judas Iscariot would've been saved.
                    How do you know Judas wasn't saved? If you study the story about Judas he hung himself after the resurrection. Many scholars believe that Judas had a major part to play with the events recorded in the Gospels. Judas was forgiven. The problem was he couldn't forgive himself. Did Judas repent? You tell me.

                    Matthew 27:3-5

                    When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”
                    I know what I know
                    I know what I don't know
                    I don't know what I don't know.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

                      Originally posted by Nick View Post
                      How do you know Judas wasn't saved?
                      Because scripture says so.

                      John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

                      The son of perdition that Jesus mentioned here is widely understood to be Judas Iscariot because He was speaking of not losing any of the disciples except one. Well, obviously Judas Iscariot is the one who stopped following Him so it's obvious that Jesus was speaking of him.

                      If you study the story about Judas he hung himself after the resurrection. Many scholars believe that Judas had a major part to play with the events recorded in the Gospels. Judas was forgiven. The problem was he couldn't forgive himself.
                      Where does it indicate that He asked God for forgiveness? It doesn't. And, again, Jesus said he was lost.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

                        Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
                        Matt 26:25 (KJV)

                        The record is clear that Jesus sat at meat "with the twelve disciples." This included Judas. Judas could not be absent, Judas went from this sacred feast to the enemies of Christ. (Psalm 41:9; John 13:18.)

                        When Jesus announced that one of the twelve would betray him, they were sorrowful and began "to say unto him every one, Is it I, Lord?" They were amazed, grieved, and doubtful. They did not understand His statement, so they asked "Is it I?" Jesus gave an answer by saying, "He that dipped his hand with Me in the dish, the same shall betray Me."

                        Jesus saw the disciples were grieving and agitated by what He said and gave a sign as to who would be the traitor. He makes a sign by which the traitor shall be known by fulfilling to the letter a prophecy. (Psalm 41:9.)

                        It may be that Judas dipped his hand with Jesus into this dish. Jesus then quoted a prophecy to be fulfilled and said, "woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed!" He then said that "good were it for that man if he had not been born."

                        After all the others had asked Jesus if they would betray him, Judas then asked, "Is it I, Rabbi?" The innocent disciples say "Lord," but the guilty one said "Rabbi." By this change Judas denied the claim that Jesus was his "Lord." Jesus answered mildly the insulting hypocritical question and said, "Thou hast said." This confirmed how gently Jesus deals with the bold insult of the hardened wretch that should betray him. And he shall be saved?
                        All scripture quoted from KJV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

                          Judas acknowledged his sin before man and God. He confessed - “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”
                          I know what I know
                          I know what I don't know
                          I don't know what I don't know.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

                            Originally posted by Nick View Post
                            Judas acknowledged his sin before man and God. He confessed - “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”
                            Luke 22:22 (KJV)
                            22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

                            The woe upon the traitor points him out as an object both of pity and of wrath. God's purpose was foretold by the prophet, yet the murderers and betrayer were without excuse. (Acts 2:22-24.)

                            Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:23-24 (KJV)


                            This shows that Jesus was delivered by the Jews to the Roman authorities according to a plan that had been outlined by the prophets. Jesus willingly, when His hour came, gave Himself into the hands of His enemy, and let them do what they would with Him. God had willed the death of Jesus (John 3:16) and the death of Judas (Acts 1:16), but that fact did not clear Judas of the responsibility and guilt (Luke 22:22).

                            Judas acted as a free moral agent. Peter could say that "ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay." This places guilt upon those who took part in the crucifixion of Jesus. The Jews cried, "Crucify, crucify him" (Luke 23:21), and Pilate attempted to constrain them, but finally gave sentence against Jesus. Peter here made a bold charge against his hearers. They charged Peter and the other apostles with being drunk, but he charged them with the crucifixion of their Messiah.
                            All scripture quoted from KJV

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: What is Jesus referring to in John 15:16, and 16:3

                              I am not convinced that "none except the son of perdition has been lost" means lost spiritually. He certainly went to a quick destruction.

                              I find the actions of Judas in subsequent rejection of the money to be an act of repentance.

                              I have to give him the benefit of the doubt, as there is too much of Judas in me.

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