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  • "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

    This phrase, found in John 20:17 has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Would anyone like to offer an opinion as to why Jesus said this to Mary?
    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness : That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. II Tim. 3:16,17.

  • #2
    Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

    Originally posted by Tony Cross View Post
    This phrase, found in John 20:17 has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Would anyone like to offer an opinion as to why Jesus said this to Mary?
    Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.


    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

    My before. Mine and yours after.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

      Originally posted by Tony Cross
      This phrase, found in John 20:17 has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Would anyone like to offer an opinion as to why Jesus said this to Mary?
      There is the alternate translation that has Jesus say 'Do not cling to me'. Accompany interpretations suggest that Jesus was, in effect, telling Mary 'You don't need to cling to me, because I'm not leaving quite yet'.

      It could also be seen as a contrast against Thomas apparently needing to take a hold of Jesus to see that he was risen from the dead. Mary goes to grab Jesus, see if it's really him, and Jesus says, 'Come on now, you don't need to do that', whereas Thomas doubts and doubts, to which Jesus says, 'Alright, do you really need to take my hand and grab my feet to figure this out?'
      To This Day

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

        Percho nailed it in my opinion. The "ascension" to heaven took place 40 days after the resurrection. Yet, when he rose he told Mary, "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father." So she couldn't touch him BECAUSE he hadn't ascended, yet, 8 days later he is telling Thomas to "touch me." This is, in my opinion, one of the reasons I find the lack of studying the Feasts to be a detriment to understanding the fulness of Mesisah's work. The Feasts were designed to paint a picture of his work.

        Passover - Redemption of His people
        Unleavened Bread - Life without sin
        Wave Offering/ Firstfruits - the first raised from the dead
        Trumpets - the gather of all of God's people to one fold
        Atonement - the final removal of all sin, perfection
        Tabernacles - The Wedding Supper of the Lamb
        (This was abbreviated of course)

        On the day after the weekly Sabbath during Unleavened Bread, the High priest would go and wave before God the wave sheaf of the firstfruits of the spring harvest. (Lev. 23:11) The picture is very clear... Jesus as the HIGH Priest went before the Father and waved HIMSELF as the firstfruits, and was obviously accepted as such.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

          Originally posted by markedward View Post
          There is the alternate translation that has Jesus say 'Do not cling to me'. Accompany interpretations suggest that Jesus was, in effect, telling Mary 'You don't need to cling to me, because I'm not leaving quite yet'.

          It could also be seen as a contrast against Thomas apparently needing to take a hold of Jesus to see that he was risen from the dead. Mary goes to grab Jesus, see if it's really him, and Jesus says, 'Come on now, you don't need to do that', whereas Thomas doubts and doubts, to which Jesus says, 'Alright, do you really need to take my hand and grab my feet to figure this out?'
          No offense intended my brother, but the word anabainō (G305) means to rise up, go up, ascend, climb, or spring up. (Source - Strong's and Thayer) To "cling to" is a translation not supported by any use of the word. If you have esword or another decent program, just look up G305 and see where and how else it is used. You'll see the context surrounding "every" use does not stand in harmony with the idea of clinging to anything. Blessings!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

            λεγει αυτη ο ιησους μη μου απτου ουπω γαρ αναβεβηκα προς τον πατερα μου πορευου δε προς τους αδελφους μου και ειπε αυτοις αναβαινω προς τον πατερα μου και πατερα υμων και θεον μου και θεον υμων


            I'm referring to the underlined blue word, the verb απτομαι, where Jesus says 'Do not [απτου] to me'... hence 'Do not [cling] to me'. You're thinking of the word in red.
            To This Day

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            • #7
              Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

              Originally posted by markedward View Post
              λεγει αυτη ο ιησους μη μου απτου ουπω γαρ αναβεβηκα προς τον πατερα μου πορευου δε προς τους αδελφους μου και ειπε αυτοις αναβαινω προς τον πατερα μου και πατερα υμων και θεον μου και θεον υμων


              I'm referring to the underlined blue word, the verb απτομαι, where Jesus says 'Do not [απτου] to me'... hence 'Do not [cling] to me'. You're thinking of the word in red.
              Thanks for clarifying... I can see that, cling, attach, hold onto but there is still a sense of touching here. I don't think that changes my belief on this, that same word is used consistently in the LXX (Greek OT for those who might not know, translated first about 300BC) in places where the Hebrew "naga" appears in the Massoretic texts. Naga just means to touch, so cling or touch probably work... not sure it changes the context of Him being the firstfruit and waving Himself before the Father. What do you think?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

                Originally posted by LandShark
                not sure it changes the context of Him being the firstfruit and waving Himself before the Father.
                I don't see where this idea is implied in the text of John 20.
                To This Day

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

                  I believe that the reason has been given, but there is one more point to add.

                  One of God's principles is that the first and best fruits belonged to Him (Ex.13:2, 12, 34:19). It is thus established in the Law. So our Lord Jesus was the "first born" from the dead. Thus He is first to be presented to the Father and then only to men. BUT....

                  The first fruit offering, the wave offering, HAD TO BE A SHEAF.
                  "When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord" (Lev.23:10-12)

                  So our Lord Jesus is resurrected first (that He might have preeminence in ALL things), but He must wait a short while while a SHEAF is gathered. And so; "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection... ." (Matt.27:52-53)

                  It is noteworthy that a human, and a woman for that matter, is allowed to see and speak to Him before He ascended to the Father, but no-one may touch Him until after He has presented Himself as the firstfruits of resurrection to the Father, Who has claim on these things.

                  A controversy raged on this Forum a while back about the matter of John 14:1-3. "1 Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." But if one can jump over the shadow of tradition that says that this talks of going to heaven, it is quite easy to see that our Lord Jesus predicted what He would do on resurrection day.

                  He rises, waits for the sheaf to be complete, ascends to the Father to present Himself as firstfruits from the dead, and then descends and breathes Himself into the disciples some 12-15 hours later (Jn.20:22). In the verses above, the Lord promised that He would go to the Father and return so that His disciples could be "where I AM" (present tense). So all that remains is to find out where our Lord was at the time of speaking in John Chapter 14. Fortunately, He answers that for us Himself in the same context.

                  "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you" (John 14:20)

                  This is exactly in harmony with all that transpired. The Father's House in scripture is always;
                  1. The Tabernacle of the Wilderness
                  2. The Temple at Jerusalem
                  3. Christ's Body
                  4. The Church

                  I have inserted the correct word in the Greek for "mansions" as there is no call to imply mansions here. The Greek word is used again verse 23 and there correctly translated.

                  "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him" (John 14:23)

                  So our Lord Jesus had two ascensions. One secretly as First Fruits to the Father for the Father's enjoyment, and one openly in Acts Chapter 1 to take His place at the right hand of the majesty on high. His return from the first was to establish the Father's House with many abodes by breathing Himself into His disciples, and His return from the second ascension will be to make the kingdoms of this world His by military might (Rev.11:15).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

                    Originally posted by Tony Cross View Post
                    This phrase, found in John 20:17 has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Would anyone like to offer an opinion as to why Jesus said this to Mary?
                    Usually we think of Mary being alone when this happened, yet Matt 28:8 -10 shows a picture of Jesus meeting all the women. Now maybe He met Mary first and then met the rest of the women. The question this does bring to mind is where is Jesus in between His appearances? Does He go to Heaven in between?

                    Also "Touch G680" ἅπτομαι is the word I have, which is different to the one Markedwards has in blue is related, but not the same, as his version doesn't have the additional -μαι.
                    Reflexive of G681; properly to attach oneself to, that is, to touch (in many implied relations): - touch.
                    Mine is based on the KJV - not sure of which passage Markedward's is using.

                    For me I think that the point isn't in the touch or cling, but what He says as to why NOT to touch or cling - for I have not yet returned to my Father. Go instead...
                    Why tell her to say this as He was going to appear to them that evening anyway? He hadn't returned to the Father yet! This is a different issue to His ascension. This He would do 40 days later. In this phrase He was saying, Do not be afraid, I am Risen! I have conquered death and the way to the Father is truly open. I am going to the Father now and He is truly now your Father.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

                      Originally posted by Tony Cross View Post
                      This phrase, found in John 20:17 has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Would anyone like to offer an opinion as to why Jesus said this to Mary?
                      It has already been pointed out about the duties of the High Priest and why he shouldn't be touched. A few more thoughts below:

                      He had not yet ascended. But when you compare what was said to Mary to what he said to Thomas, it gets interesting. He told Mary not to touch him and his reason was "for I have not yet ascended to the Father". When he saw Thomas, he told Thomas to stick his hand in his side and in his nail prints. Big difference! I think that proves that Jesus had ascended after he saw Mary but before he saw Thomas.

                      John 16:7

                      7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
                      KJV

                      Jesus had to first go away before the comforter could come. After he ascended (gone away) and performed the duties of the High Priest, the Comforter could come. Look what happened between Mary and Thomas....

                      John 20:22

                      22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
                      KJV

                      They received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus had ascended and performed the duties of the High Priest. He then returned and gave the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Then he told Thomas to put his hand in his side and in his nail prints because he had completed the sprinkling in heaven.

                      Acts 2 is where they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

                      Acts 2:4

                      4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,
                      KJV

                      IMO, that is different than having the Spirit indwell us and it is one reason we are told in Ephesians to "be filled with the Holy Spirit" even though He is already indwelling us.

                      Eph 5:18

                      18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
                      KJV
                      Matt 9:13
                      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                      NASU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

                        Originally posted by Tony Cross View Post
                        This phrase, found in John 20:17 has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Would anyone like to offer an opinion as to why Jesus said this to Mary?
                        I'm going to share what the Lord showed me a number years ago concerning this passage as well as a prophecy that is contained within this event. There is some scriptural support for this but a lot of it came by revelation as in hearing from God. Consequently there is going to be people here who will not accept it and that is okay with me as I'm just sharing this with you as in my $.02 worth

                        First I would say that I agree this passage appears very unusual because shortly afterwards we see Jesus telling Thomas to go ahead and touch him that was long before Jesus ascended unto heaven in addition to other physical contact that he had with others.

                        Jesus became our high priest and the first duty of the high priest following the Sabbath that followed the Passover was to present the wave offering of the barley harvest for inspection. An important note here is unlike wheat harvested at the time of Pentecost, barley will not bond with leaven that is a metaphor for sin in the Bible. There is a lot of prophecy within the different properties of barley versus wheat

                        In order for Jesus to do this he had to ascend unto God and present himself holy and without sin along with the “omer of barley” that prophesied of those who were represented by the barley seeds who at some time in the future would also appear the same as Jesus standing before God without sin.(something that according to John no man can say)

                        Because Mary like everyone else was an unclean person Jesus told her not to touch him because she would defile him as Jesus had not yet presented this wave offering to God that was done early in the morning albeit not as early as Mary appeared at the tomb of Jesus. The prophecy being because she did grab his feet and we are “the feet company” who are still yet not fully clean, Mary touching the feet was a prophecy that the body of Christ was not yet perfected as Jesus said it would be on the 3rd day.(that most take to mean when he would appear resurrected "perfect" following the crucifixion)

                        However, since the year 2000 we have moved into the 3rd day since the time of Jesus who on the 5th day of creation said the following verse.

                        Luke 13:32
                        And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.


                        For 2000 years a.k.a. 2 days since then Jesus has been doing cures and casting out devils from the hearts of people by the presence of the Holy Spirit coming into them in the same manner that light displaces darkness. However, the body of Christ has still not been perfected because we here who are fulfilling the role of the feet company still on earth are still dealing with sin issues. On the other hand God's word will not return void, and I personally expect there will soon be an event that will usher in what is known as the millennium when those who rule with Christ will be perfected.

                        As I have already said ........ Just my $.02 and it is not for everyone to see it as I do.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

                          Originally posted by markedward View Post
                          I don't see where this idea is implied in the text of John 20.
                          His whole mission was defined in the Feasts. I laid out in my first post a VERY condensed version of what the Feasts pointed to. If his ascension into heaven was 40 days after the resurrection, and yet he he states he can't be touched because he hasn't ascended and then 8 days later is allowing them to touch him, whatever THAT ascension was, happened. I reconcile it by aligning it to first fruits... Paul in 1 Cor 15 is who aligns Messiah's risen self to the first fruits harvest which is tied into the spring Feasts which pointed to his first coming. (The fall feasts depict his return) So, I see the wave offering by the High Priest before the Lord who would accept the wave offering as the "first fruits" of the harvest to be the picture of the GREAT High Priest waving HIMSELF before the Father as the first fruits of THE Harvest of which we are part.

                          If you see this differently, that's fine, no problem!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

                            Originally posted by Livelystone View Post
                            I'm going to share what the Lord showed me a number years ago concerning this passage as well as a prophecy that is contained within this event. There is some scriptural support for this but a lot of it came by revelation as in hearing from God. Consequently there is going to be people here who will not accept it and that is okay with me as I'm just sharing this with you as in my $.02 worth

                            First I would say that I agree this passage appears very unusual because shortly afterwards we see Jesus telling Thomas to go ahead and touch him that was long before Jesus ascended unto heaven in addition to other physical contact that he had with others.

                            Jesus became our high priest and the first duty of the high priest following the Sabbath that followed the Passover was to present the wave offering of the barley harvest for inspection. An important note here is unlike wheat harvested at the time of Pentecost, barley will not bond with leaven that is a metaphor for sin in the Bible. There is a lot of prophecy within the different properties of barley versus wheat

                            In order for Jesus to do this he had to ascend unto God and present himself holy and without sin along with the “omer of barley” that prophesied of those who were represented by the barley seeds who at some time in the future would also appear the same as Jesus standing before God without sin.(something that according to John no man can say)

                            Because Mary like everyone else was an unclean person Jesus told her not to touch him because she would defile him as Jesus had not yet presented this wave offering to God that was done early in the morning albeit not as early as Mary appeared at the tomb of Jesus. The prophecy being because she did grab his feet and we are “the feet company” who are still yet not fully clean, Mary touching the feet was a prophecy that the body of Christ was not yet perfected as Jesus said it would be on the 3rd day.(that most take to mean when he would appear resurrected "perfect" following the crucifixion)

                            However, since the year 2000 we have moved into the 3rd day since the time of Jesus who on the 5th day of creation said the following verse.

                            Luke 13:32
                            And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.


                            For 2000 years a.k.a. 2 days since then Jesus has been doing cures and casting out devils from the hearts of people by the presence of the Holy Spirit coming into them in the same manner that light displaces darkness. However, the body of Christ has still not been perfected because we here who are fulfilling the role of the feet company still on earth are still dealing with sin issues. On the other hand God's word will not return void, and I personally expect there will soon be an event that will usher in what is known as the millennium when those who rule with Christ will be perfected.

                            As I have already said ........ Just my $.02 and it is not for everyone to see it as I do.
                            You have touched a point that we all forgot to mention. The firstfruits at the time of Passover were the firstfruits of the winter crop, barley being the first to ripen. Our Lord Jesus is the firstfruits of that planted in the winter of mankind when all, even His own people, the chosen people, had rejected Him. The winter crops have the harshest conditions in which to ripen, and are the most wanted, as the barns are nearly empty of the previous years harvest. Our Lord Jesus is the most precious and wanted BY THE FATHER, while men, even His disciples, were disappointed in Him. In Luke 24:13-21 the disciples were "sad" in Jesus (He had disappointed them - v.13) and their (flimsy) trust had been broken (v.21). Long had the Father awaited this precious crop from the dead of men, and no-one was to sully His enjoyment of the newly resurrected crop from the dead. Jesus was to be FULLY for the Father, and FIRST for the Father.

                            As to Luke 13:32 I believe that the Lord was alluding to the Millennial Reign. Hosea 6:2 gives the time of Israel's rejection as two days, and then the next day would be the dawn of the third day since our Lord Jesus started casting out demons - the Millennium when Israel was resurrected (Dan.12:2). Casting out demons was a sign that the kingdom was near (Luke 11:20).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father"

                              Tony, my thought is pretty much like markedward's. I think cling makes more sense of it. I know he and landshark went back and forth a little about it but language resources support this idea besides newer translations - at least every language resource I own (and I own a lot of them).

                              The only difference is understanding why he said it. Markedward suggested he was saying "You don't need to cling to me, because I'm not leaving quite yet". I've always taken it as a "don't cling to me, I'm not going to be hanging around very long." Just perusing some commentaries is common idea of "don't cling to me, you've got a job to do" and then the next verse she goes and announces that she's seen him.

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