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The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

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  • The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

    It was suggested in another thread (boy these threads seem more like winding county roads ) that based on the following verses we are born - as children - innocent, i.e. sinless or in some way righteous in the sight of God. What say you?

    Matt 19:14) But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

    Matt18:3) Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    4) "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."


    Does't such a view violate the doctrine of sin?
    (Rom 3:23, Ecc 7:20, Ps 51:5)

    What was Jesus really saying if he was not saying children are sinless?

    If children are born without "iniquity", as the Psamist would say it, then at what point in life do we become responsible for sin? If we are born without being compelled to sin, being like Adam and Eve in the Garden who sinned out of forgetful disobedence rather than prideful rebellion, please justify your answer with scripture.
    • Include your opinion of what is "the knowledge of good and evil".
    • Explain how it is that we are born with the same opportunity of Adam and Eve, i.e. being created without any knowledge of good and evil or desire to sin.
    • Please further explain the purpose and effect of God's curse in Genesis 3.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  • #2
    Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

    Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
    It was suggested in another thread (boy these threads seem more like winding county roads ) that based on the following verses we are born - as children - innocent, i.e. sinless or in some way righteous in the sight of God. What say you?
    Matt 19:14) But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
    Matt18:3) Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    4) "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

    Does't such a view violate the doctrine of sin?
    (Rom 3:23, Ecc 7:20, Ps 51:5)
    What was Jesus really saying if he was not saying children are sinless?
    If children are born without "iniquity", as the Psamist would say it, then at what point in life do we become responsible for sin? If we are born without being compelled to sin, being like Adam and Eve in the Garden who sinned out of forgetful disobedence rather than prideful rebellion, please justify your answer with scripture.
    • Include your opinion of what is "the knowledge of good and evil".
    • Explain how it is that we are born with the same opportunity of Adam and Eve, i.e. being created without any knowledge of good and evil or desire to sin.
    • Please further explain the purpose and effect of God's curse in Genesis 3.
    I see children being born in a state of sin (which is anther word meaning separated from God.) It is related to the word Death. Note the last enemy to be destroyed is Death - surely that is SIN.
    However returning to the question, I see the above verses as showing what kind of attitude we should have. Note "the kingdom belongs to SUCH as these." IOW of like kind. Again "Whoever then humbles himself LIKE these." Though I paraphrase slightly, I hope you can see I have only done so to highlight the point that is being childlike, without being childish which is what God wants.
    Child like I understand as NOT boasting in yourself. Notice kids sometimes say, "My Dad is bigger / stronger / richer etc than your Dad" This is boasting in the Father NOT in themselves.
    They also are reliant on their parents.
    They also trust their parents.
    They also don't know what is impossible and have faith in what the parents can do.

    Just my take on this.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

      Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
      It was suggested in another thread (boy these threads seem more like winding county roads ) that based on the following verses we are born - as children - innocent, i.e. sinless or in some way righteous in the sight of God. What say you?
      There is a difference between innocent and righteous. Babies are innocent.
      Matt 19:14) But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

      Matt18:3) Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
      4) "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."


      Does't such a view violate the doctrine of sin?
      (Rom 3:23, Ecc 7:20, Ps 51:5)
      No, it doesn't violate it because those Scriptures don't say that we come into this world as sinners.

      What was Jesus really saying if he was not saying children are sinless?
      You have to understand the difference between right and wrong in order to choose right over wrong or wrong over right (i.e. transgress the law).

      If children are born without "iniquity", as the Psamist would say it, then at what point in life do we become responsible for sin?
      Paul says that he was once alive and when when the commandment came in (i.e. he comprehended right from wrong), he died (Rom. 7:9)

      If we are born without being compelled to sin being like Adam and Eve in the Garden who sinned out of forgetful disobedence rather than prideful rebellion, please justify your answer with scripture.
      Who says we are compelled to sin any more than Adam and Eve?

      • Include your opinion of what is "the knowledge of good and evil".
      Becoming a judge.
      Explain how it is that we are born with the same opportunity of Adam and Eve, i.e. being created without any knowledge of good and evil or desire to sin.
      Babies have knowledge of good and evil? Babies "desire" to sin?
      • Please further explain the purpose and effect of God's curse in Genesis 3.

      Purpose? Not sure. I'll think about it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

        I find your post to be... hmmm. funny almost. Did you actually read Ps 51:5?

        So babies are born unselfish and kind, and... good? And if they are sinless, how can they not be righteous?

        Furthermore, if all men are born without sin, having done nothing, then it must be possible for some men to make it quite some time without sinning, surely there are a few perfect people other than Jesus Christ? It is an eventuality that someone would make it all the way without sinning.
        As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

          Originally posted by Aijalon
          being like Adam and Eve in the Garden who sinned out of forgetful disobedence rather than prideful rebellion
          Forgive me, I have never heard it put this way before... You believe Adam and Eve sinned out of forgetful disobedience? What did they forget? Or, how is forgetful disobedience different from willful disobedience? Do you mean like a child who might forget to take out the trash after he was told to? If so, how would that apply to Adam and Eve?

          Regarding the OP, I too believe scripture suggests we are born innocent and that Adam and Eve were also innocent until they willfully disobeyed. We will suffer physical death, regardless, but until one understands that something is "wrong" and does it anyway, they are innocent.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

            Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
            There is a difference between innocent and righteous. Babies are innocent..
            Does God kill the innocent? Did He ever command His people to kill babies? Before you answer, read 1 Samuel 15:2-3. Now why would a God of only Love kill infants? Here's a hint...it's called "cleansing". No, babies are innocent if they are born of the wrong seed. They are the collateral damage of God's wrath. God really didn't like the Amalelites.

            "This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

            Here we have a clear example of where the "innocent" were predestined for destruction, even before they were knit together in their mother's womb.
            I know what I know
            I know what I don't know
            I don't know what I don't know.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

              Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
              It was suggested in another thread (boy these threads seem more like winding county roads ) that based on the following verses we are born - as children - innocent, i.e. sinless or in some way righteous in the sight of God. What say you?

              Matt 19:14) But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

              Matt18:3) Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
              4) "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."


              Does't such a view violate the doctrine of sin?
              (Rom 3:23, Ecc 7:20, Ps 51:5)

              What was Jesus really saying if he was not saying children are sinless?

              If children are born without "iniquity", as the Psamist would say it, then at what point in life do we become responsible for sin? If we are born without being compelled to sin, being like Adam and Eve in the Garden who sinned out of forgetful disobedence rather than prideful rebellion, please justify your answer with scripture.
              • Include your opinion of what is "the knowledge of good and evil".
              • Explain how it is that we are born with the same opportunity of Adam and Eve, i.e. being created without any knowledge of good and evil or desire to sin.
              • Please further explain the purpose and effect of God's curse in Genesis 3.
              Why did you jump from what we do, back to our state at birth? See your error?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

                Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
                There is a difference between innocent and righteous. Babies are innocent. No, it doesn't violate it because those Scriptures don't say that we come into this world as sinners.
                Exactly what is "sin"? Though rebellion against God is sin, it technically is "falling short of the mark".

                The thing about children (and those with damaged/limited intelligence) --- they cannot make moral decisions. No one goes to Hell by accident; conscious willful unbelief is what condemns us --- 1Jn5:10. A child cannot manifest unbelief necessary for condemnation.

                Originally posted by LookingUp
                You have to understand the difference between right and wrong in order to choose right over wrong or wrong over right (i.e. transgress the law).
                'Zactly.

                Originally posted by Aijalon
                Does't such a view violate the doctrine of sin?
                (Rom 3:23, Ecc 7:20, Ps 51:5)
                You quoted Jesus saying "the kingdom of Heaven belongs to children". Do you have some way to dismiss Jesus' words? Can we ignore them or change their meaning?

                Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven belongs to these children; and unless one humbles himself as a child he will never see Heaven --- unless one BECOMES LIKE one of these children.

                How many meanings could Jesus have intended?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

                  Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                  Why did you jump from what we do, back to our state at birth? See your error?
                  Where does the Bible say only our adult/informed actions condemn us? And where does the Bible say we are right with God at birth? Where does it say we're innocent at birth? It says otherwise!

                  what is our state at birth? Isn't the doctrine of sin that mankind is a fallen race. Do we not know good and evil even from birth? Please show me where the Bible says otherwise.

                  Where does the Bible say there is any middle ground between belief and unbelief?

                  Where does it say we must make a moral decision in order for God to make up his mind about us. Of course willful unbelief is condemning. And before this we're already condmened. How else can Adam's one sin be toward all men condemnation? Why does Romans constantly speak of the condemnation toward all men if all men are not already condemned from birth? And what is Ps 51:5 talking about then?

                  I see no reason to even go on with this thread, you are so desperatly and willfully overlooking man's sin and separation from God in favor of your own funny docrine. I didn't even realize people could disagree with Calvin's first point. But I guess if you make up enough moral platitudes about sinless babies you can reach any conclusion!

                  As you contemplate these questions consider the difference between the Hebrew verb for "sinning" chatta'
                  which means figuratively to "miss the mark" (to err)

                  and its noun form -
                  chatta'ath
                  Which means a state of guilt, or guiltiness, a condition of sin-guilt.

                  EDIT > There is also the word `avon , meaning iniquity or guilt & consequenses of.... (Ex 20:5 and Ex 34:7)

                  Before even futhering this discussion with anyone thinking they were born guiltless, for we are all born with sin-guilt on us, otherwise it would not be said by God that he visits the sin of the father upon the third and fourth generation, read up on your definition of sin a little bit more. An individual act of sin, that which you suggest babies are incapable of, is not the subject at hand. The subject at hand is the condition of mankind, its state of sin, and the way in which God regards this sin as an automatic sentence of condemnation.

                  I'm not going to continue this rediculous discussion about babies incapable of making decisions. Get real. If you want to talk about sinlessness, there is only one human being that ever was, Jesus Christ. Any other view is heresy.
                  As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

                    Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
                    Jump? Who says our actions condemned us? And where does the Bible say we are right with God at birth? Where does it say we're innocent at birth? It says otherwise!

                    what is our state at birth? Isn't the doctrine of sin that mankind is a fallen race. Do we not know good and evil even from birth? Please show me where the Bible says otherwise.
                    It doesn't. In fact we are born to sin. Sinning is our natural state of being. Following Christ is to do the unnatural. One look at today's global society should confirm that. This perfect ideal of loving one another unconditionally is a very foreign concept to most, and if not, certainly one that requires lots of practice.
                    I know what I know
                    I know what I don't know
                    I don't know what I don't know.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

                      Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
                      Jump? Who says our actions condemned us? And where does the Bible say we are right with God at birth? Where does it say we're innocent at birth? It says otherwise!

                      what is our state at birth? Isn't the doctrine of sin that mankind is a fallen race. Do we not know good and evil even from birth? Please show me where the Bible says otherwise.
                      The state of mankind at physical birth...all are born under the sentence of death. Not according to the sins every human will ultimately commit, but according to or on account of the disobedience of our first parents.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

                        Originally posted by Aijalon View Post
                        I find your post to be... hmmm. funny almost.
                        Thank you for your transparency. It’s nice to know one’s character from the beginning of a discussion.

                        Did you actually read Ps 51:5?
                        Yes, I read verse 5. Did you read verses 1 through 4 and verses 6 through 19?

                        So babies are born unselfish and kind, and... good?
                        Infants are not born as sinners. To become a sinner, one must sin. Sin is transgression of the law. Tell me how an infant transgresses the law.

                        And if they are sinless, how can they not be righteous?
                        To be "sinless" is to be without sin (i.e. to have never transgressed the law). To behave righteously is to choose right over wrong.

                        To “be” righteous is through Christ alone. To “behave” righteously requires a conscious awareness of right and wrong.

                        Furthermore, if all men are born without sin, having done nothing, then it must be possible for some men to make it quite some time without sinning,
                        Without consciously sinning, yes. Without intentionally sinning, yes. At some point, an infant moves into childhood and may sin in ignorance, but it is not until s/he develops conscious awareness of right and wrong that he/she begins to partake in conscious and/or intentional sin.

                        surely there are a few perfect people other than Jesus Christ?
                        Not that I’m aware of.

                        It is an eventuality that someone would make it all the way without sinning.
                        Why is that?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

                          Originally posted by Nick View Post
                          Does God kill the innocent?
                          There have been times.

                          Did He ever command His people to kill babies?
                          Yes.

                          Now why would a God of only Love kill infants?
                          What is wrong with God killing innocent infants?

                          Here we have a clear example of where the "innocent" were predestined for destruction, even before they were knit together in their mother's womb.
                          Scripture doesn’t say they were “predestined.” You made that up.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

                            Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                            Why did you jump from what we do, back to our state at birth? See your error?
                            Yep. Nice catch.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The fall of man and inborn sin, or are we born right with God?

                              Originally posted by Gadgeteer View Post
                              Exactly what is "sin"? Though rebellion against God is sin, it technically is "falling short of the mark".

                              The thing about children (and those with damaged/limited intelligence) --- they cannot make moral decisions. No one goes to Hell by accident; conscious willful unbelief is what condemns us --- 1Jn5:10. A child cannot manifest unbelief necessary for condemnation.

                              'Zactly.

                              You quoted Jesus saying "the kingdom of Heaven belongs to children". Do you have some way to dismiss Jesus' words? Can we ignore them or change their meaning?

                              Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven belongs to these children; and unless one humbles himself as a child he will never see Heaven --- unless one BECOMES LIKE one of these children.

                              How many meanings could Jesus have intended?
                              Tried to rep, but gotta "spread it around."

                              Comment

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