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How to defend: "Bible says the Earth is flat" and other issues?

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  • How to defend: "Bible says the Earth is flat" and other issues?

    I am posting in a topic on a message board where the atheists/evolutionists are claiming that literal 6-day creation in the Bible must be taken as metaphor, and that the Bible also states that the Earth is flat (among other things), which should therefore also be taken as a metaphor.

    Just a note: I am hoping to get some common sense advice on the meanings of these verses. Saying "The Bible is infallible" (although I agree with that), won't help when dealing with unbelievers.


    Some of the passages they are using:

    Claim: "Earth is flat"

    Job 38:13
    That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?

    (they are implying the Earth has "ends", as in the edges of a rectangle)

    Job 38:14
    It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment.

    (they are implying that the Earth is flat, like the clay under a seal is flat)

    Isaiah 40:22
    It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

    (they are implying that the word "sphere" should have been used, not "circle")

    Matthew 4:8
    Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

    (they are implying that the Earth must be flat in order to see all the kingdoms from one point. This one I think I can explain myself (this was a vision, and obviously not meant to be taken literally) but your input is welcomed ofcourse)


    Claim "Earth sits on pillars/Earth does not move"


    1 Samuel 2:8
    He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. “For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, And He has set the world upon them.

    (they are implying that the Earth sits on pillars)

    Job 9:6
    He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble;

    (same implication as above)

    1 Chronicles 16:30
    Tremble before Him, all the earth. The world also is firmly established, It shall not be moved.

    (same implication as above)

    Claim "Sun moves around the Earth, not the other way around"

    Psalm 19:4-6
    Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their words to the end of the world. In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, And rejoices like a strong man to run its race. Its rising is from one end of heaven, And its circuit to the other end; And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

    (they are implying the Sun moves around the Earth)

    Ecclesiastes 1:5
    The sun also rises, and the sun goes down, And hastens to the place where it arose.

    (same implication as above)


    I understand that some of these (especially the last 2) are from our viewpoint (same as saying "The Sun sets in the West" (where it is infact the Earth spinning and not the Sun moving)). But they are saying that since these are obviously meant to be taken as metaphor, why not Genesis 1?

    Any help is appreciated
    http://www.mychristiansite.com/personal/vision/ <-- My site. Check it out

    http://www.freehovind.com Please sign the petition to pardon Kent Hovind.

  • #2
    Don't be too concerned with the idea that they "must" accept the 6 literal day interpretation. I am a literal 6-dayer, but I can see much logic in some of the other intrepretations of the 6 days. And until the Lord returns we have no way of proving one way or the other, it's a matter of faith.
    And you are apparently dealing with the faithless, no? Therefore, make this your goal, remember what saves...faith in Jesus Christ as the Saviour and the only Begotten Son of God.
    The bible doesn't say, "believe on Jesus, and take this part of the bible literally, and that part symbollically, and you shall be saved", but what does it say?
    "That whosoever believeth on Him, might not perish, but have everlasting life".
    I say this because I just happened to have a discussion with a young man at work about a week ago. And he wasn't sure whether he could believe in God and science at the same time. And since Jesus was always complaining about the jews need for a sign, you know PROOF, I decided that this man couldn't have ignorant faith AND seek a sign at the same time. I say ignorant because he is more than well aware of all that science says, so to him that was the knowledge that could destroy his faith, if he couldn't figure out how to marry his knowlege to his faith.
    So, I gave him permission to have faith AND believe science. I figure "who am I to insist that he have the same faith as me?" By the end of the conversation, he felt so much better, I could see it all over his face.
    To him evolution is glorifying to God, but to me, it's insulting to God's power. Therefore, if he has been told that you can't have both, faith and believe in evolution, I should let him know, he can. His faith is more important than that I believe.

    Hope this helps.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm no expert but here's a couple of ideas, I'm sure someone else will expand/improve on these..

      Job 38:13
      That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?
      If you have a designated starting point and end point on a sphere you have ends. Doesn't have to be ends as in sides/edges.

      Isaiah 40:22
      It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
      If you are above a sphere looking down.....you see a circle. This one appears to be exactly correct to me. Also note how it says he stretches out the heavens.......universe expanding/stretching and all that.


      There is also a verse somewhere that says "he hangeth the earth upon nothing". This implies the earth is suspended in mid-air so to say, rather than being supported by something........which we seem to have evidence it is. I think the pillars must be metaphorical or something like if I said the foundations of modern chess theory were made by Steintz and Tarrasch, it doesn't mean they actually built pillars and foundations does it ?

      Comment


      • #4
        We can't deal with an unbeliever like a believer, because they aren't. So to tell them flat fact biblically isn't going to move them. Finding a common thread is important.

        All I can think of off the top of my head this busy evening is to ask someone who has been to space and spent some time there. They've had a pretty good perspective on all of the arguements of those you are up against. Can you imagine one of them saying that they saw something, pillars, holding up the earth? Or that the earth doesn't spin? Or that the sun did laps around them in the space station?

        Items for thought.
        Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
        Not second or third, but first.
        Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
        when He is the source of all hope,
        when His love is received and freely given,
        holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
        will all other things be added unto to you.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by threebigrocks View Post
          Can you imagine one of them saying that they saw something, pillars, holding up the earth? Or that the earth doesn't spin? Or that the sun did laps around them in the space station?
          That's exactly my main issue though (sorry if I wasn't more clear in my original post).

          Since we know that there are really no literal pillars holding up the earth, than we say that that is metaphor in the Bible. How does one respond when an evolutionist/atheist says that this same thought-process can be applied to Genesis 1 (in terms of it being a metaphor)? Today we know for certain that there are no literal pillars holding the Earth, and in many years from now (when science advances further), we will know that Genesis 1 was also a metaphor. (I don't believe Gen 1 is a metaphor - but this is their reasoning).
          http://www.mychristiansite.com/personal/vision/ <-- My site. Check it out

          http://www.freehovind.com Please sign the petition to pardon Kent Hovind.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Paul_born_again View Post
            I am posting in a topic on a message board where the atheists/evolutionists are claiming that literal 6-day creation in the Bible must be taken as metaphor, and that the Bible also states that the Earth is flat (among other things), which should therefore also be taken as a metaphor.

            Just a note: I am hoping to get some common sense advice on the meanings of these verses. Saying "The Bible is infallible" (although I agree with that), won't help when dealing with unbelievers.


            Some of the passages they are using:

            Claim: "Earth is flat"

            Job 38:13
            That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?

            (they are implying the Earth has "ends", as in the edges of a rectangle)
            Inform them of the existence of the oceans.

            Job 38:14
            It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment.

            (they are implying that the Earth is flat, like the clay under a seal is flat)
            Hmmm.... What takes on? The Earth? The planet?

            Take notice that most scripture passages which talk about "the earth" are not of "the planet" but "Earth" as in land.

            Isaiah 40:22
            It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

            (they are implying that the word "sphere" should have been used, not "circle")
            "Sphere, spear!"

            Honestly. Ask them why they are being so a n a l. If "circle" is understood, they're desperately trying to cling to anything they can find!

            Hint: They are quoting something called, "The Skeptic's Bible." They are incapable of thinking these things on their own accord. This "Bible" is one which seeks to ridicule the Word of God, and it's PC in the extreme.

            Matthew 4:8
            Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

            (they are implying that the Earth must be flat in order to see all the kingdoms from one point. This one I think I can explain myself (this was a vision, and obviously not meant to be taken literally) but your input is welcomed ofcourse)
            Sounds like a plan. Also, "all" is not necessarily meant to be taken absolutely literally. Ask them if they ALWAYS mean "all" every time they say the word. ["You all are wrong." Well, maybe that is an exaggeration, because maybe there's someone who agrees with you.]


            Claim "Earth sits on pillars/Earth does not move"


            1 Samuel 2:8
            He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. “For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, And He has set the world upon them.

            (they are implying that the Earth sits on pillars)
            "Set the world" does not necessarily mean "set the planet".

            I thought the planet was already said to be circular by scripture?

            Job 9:6
            He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble;

            (same implication as above)
            Maybe "pillars" are a reference to volcanoes? That one just occurred to me, as I am editing this post.

            1 Chronicles 16:30
            Tremble before Him, all the earth. The world also is firmly established, It shall not be moved.

            (same implication as above)
            Moved from what? Its place around the sun? Its orbit?

            Claim "Sun moves around the Earth, not the other way around"

            Psalm 19:4-6
            Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their words to the end of the world. In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, And rejoices like a strong man to run its race. Its rising is from one end of heaven, And its circuit to the other end; And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

            (they are implying the Sun moves around the Earth)
            Oh, brother!

            This one is easy. Simply ask them where the sun rises and where the sun sets. Guaranteed, they'll agree with this scripture passage.

            Ecclesiastes 1:5
            The sun also rises, and the sun goes down, And hastens to the place where it arose.

            (same implication as above)


            I understand that some of these (especially the last 2) are from our viewpoint (same as saying "The Sun sets in the West" (where it is infact the Earth spinning and not the Sun moving)). But they are saying that since these are obviously meant to be taken as metaphor, why not Genesis 1?

            Any help is appreciated
            They tend to go back and forth, don't they?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Saved7 View Post
              Don't be too concerned with the idea that they "must" accept the 6 literal day interpretation. . . . . .
              The bible doesn't say, "believe on Jesus, and take this part of the bible literally, and that part symbollically, and you shall be saved", but what does it say?
              "That whosoever believeth on Him, might not perish, but have everlasting life".
              Does anyone who does not accept a literal 6x24 hour day for Creation really believe in the literal Jesus Christ? or just in a 'Jesus Christ' they consider 'acceptable?

              The question arises because John 1:1 makes it clear that the world and everything in/on it was Created by Jesus Christ, and that He is God. The Bible is God's Word and it seems reasonable to believe the One who Created the world is able to ensure His account of that Creation is accurate.

              If the Bible's account of Creation and the Fall is not correct how can Jesus Christ be our Saviour? - since He came to "destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil,and relase those who . . .were. . . subject to bondage."(Hebrews 2:14-15)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Frances View Post
                Does anyone who does not accept a literal 6x24 hour day for Creation really believe in the literal Jesus Christ? or just in a 'Jesus Christ' they consider 'acceptable?

                The question arises because John 1:1 makes it clear that the world and everything in/on it was Created by Jesus Christ, and that He is God. The Bible is God's Word and it seems reasonable to believe the One who Created the world is able to ensure His account of that Creation is accurate.

                If the Bible's account of Creation and the Fall is not correct how can Jesus Christ be our Saviour? - since He came to "destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil,and relase those who . . .were. . . subject to bondage."(Hebrews 2:14-15)

                While I agree with your comments Frances, keep in mind that God excepts those who are "weak in faith" also. I USED to believe in evolution also, even as a christian, and as far as I was concerned, that didn't weaken God' abilities any less. BUT, as I grew in faith, my understanding of scripture changed. I think the more important thing is to worry about whether or not these folks can align what "they feel" is logic with faith. Let God worry about how or when they come to the conclusion of creation.
                And don't forget, there are some here on this board who seem to have a very good understanding of scripture and strong faith in the Lord. And to them 6 days, is six periods of time, does that mean they don't have faith and are going to hell? I don't know about you, but I am not going to be the one to make THAT judgement.
                Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Saved7 - I was not making a Judgement, just asking a question.

                  Re. the 'flat earth' people - I wonder how many of them, fully aware that the world is a sphere, have never refered to 'the 4 corners of the earth' - meaning 'north, south, east and west'?

                  Paul - Some alternative translations to the verses you quote may be helpful?:-

                  Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth",
                  Isaiah 40:22 AMP - "it is God who sits above the horizon of the earth."

                  Job 38:13 "That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?"
                  Job 38:13 NLT "Have you made daylight spread to the ends of the earth to bring an end tothe night's wickedness?"

                  1 Samuel 2:8 “For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, And He has set the world upon them.
                  1 Samuel 2:8 NIV -"For the foundations of the earth are the Lord's; upon them He has setthe world."
                  1 Samuel 2:8 NLT - "For all the world is the Lord's and He has set the world in order.

                  Job 9:6 "He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble;
                  Job 9:6 NLT - "He shakes the eartah from it's place and it's foundations tremble."

                  1 Chronicles 16:30 - KJV "Tremble before Him, all the earth. The world also shall be stable that it be not moved".
                  1 Chronicles 16:30 NIV - " tremble before Him, all the earth; the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved."
                  1 Chronicles 16:30 NLT - . . . . The world stands firm and cannot be shaken."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My whole aim is that people may come to Christ, our only Saviour!

                    Frances, dear sister in Christ,
                    In a later post you say, concerning your first post in this thread,
                    Originally posted by Frances View Post
                    I was not making a Judgement, just asking a question.
                    I really do not want to argue about a "literal 6x24 hour day" Creation. I'm just answering your original question.
                    Originally posted by Frances View Post
                    Does anyone who does not accept a literal 6x24 hour day for Creation really believe in the literal Jesus Christ? or just in a 'Jesus Christ' they consider 'acceptable?

                    The question arises because John 1:1 makes it clear that the world and everything in/on it was Created by Jesus Christ, and that He is God. The Bible is God's Word and it seems reasonable to believe the One who Created the world is able to ensure His account of that Creation is accurate.
                    Answering your question

                    Yes, many many people who believe in Jesus Christ, fully, and literally, do not think Genesis 1 is providing an exact historical account.

                    My own experience of what Christians believe

                    The vast majority of my Christian friends think that the universe was formed billions of years ago in the Big Bang, and that life on earth developed through a process of evolution that God guided.

                    These are not people watering down the Christian faith.

                    Christ as creator and ruler of all. These same friends firmly believe, just as I do, that there is one God, creator of heaven and earth, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that God the Son became man and walked among us, and died for us and rose from the dead, to redeem us from our sins, and bring us to God, that we might have everlasting life.

                    This same Jesus (so I believe and so believe all the friends I just mentioned) is the one and eternal Son of God who made all things. This is testified to by John in the prologue to his gospel. "All things were made by Him and without him was nothing made of all that was made." Likewise Jesus says of himself (John 8:58) "Before Abraham was, I am" and (Luke 10:18) "I saw Satan fall, like lightning, from heaven." Paul testifies concerning him (Phil. 2:6) that "He was in very nature God, and did not think it robbery to be equal to God" and again (Col. 1:16-17) "By Him all things were created both in heaven and on earth, ... all things were created by Him and for Him, and He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together." John also says of Christ, in his first Epistle, "That which was from the beginning, we have seen and heard and touched, ... the Word of Life ... that Eternal Life which was with the Father ... we declare to you that you may have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ."

                    The historicity of the Gospels Who our Lord Jesus was, what He was like, and the Eternal Life that He is and brings us, is seen very clearly in the accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) of his life that the Bible gives us. These clearly show Jesus to be both man and God, and our only Saviour.

                    Christ's Saving Work. Likewise all these believe that we -- all humankind -- are sinners, born sinners, guilty, and shameful before a holy and righteous God. We are so both because of our actual sins, and also because of the distorted, sinful, fallen nature that we inherit from the fall of humanity described in Genesis 3.

                    As David says "Behold, I was formed in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5) As the prayer of Daniel (9:8-9) states, "O LORD to us belong confusion of face, and to our kings, princes, and fathers, because we have sinned against you; but to the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses though we have rebelled against Him." As Isaiah (6:5) said "I am a man of unclean lips and dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips" and were not God to take away my sin "Woe is me!"

                    We are rescued from our brokenness, our sin, our shame, our guilt, and our separation from God, who alone in the fount of goodness, love, and life, by the most wonderful thing, the redemption of our world by our Lord Jesus Christ, for the means of grace and for the hope of glory. As Paul (I Cor. 15:3-5) says, our message, which we recieved and which we pass on, as of the first importance is "that Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures had foretold, and was raised on the third day, as the Scriptures foretold, and appeared" to many. This is the Gospel in which we stand.

                    Through Christ alone we are saved -- He is both man and God -- for by His incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension to God's right hand he was purged our sins, defeated and triumphed over death, brought us into life, transferred us from the kingdom of darkness to God's marvelous light, repaired human nature, reconciled us to God, and won for us everlasting life.

                    The truth of the Bible Moreover, the whole Bible is utterly true and trustworthy, "God breathed" (II Tim 3:16), authoritative, and reliable. This would be the common belief of all those Christian friends I have mentioned.

                    Yet they differ from you about whether Genesis 1 is meant as what you'd call a "literal" account of the creation. They understand it as an account of a more poetic or philosophical kind -- a "creation hymn" which gives us (together with Gen. 2-4, etc.), perfectly and in the form God chose for us, the vital and exact theological understanding of Creation.

                    About how we speak with people about Christian belief

                    Nothing is more important for a person than that that person should believe in Christ, and give himself or herself to God in Jesus Christ, for He alone is our Saviour.

                    Yet many people sincerely think that the standard scientific account of how the universe came into being, including the formation of species upon earth through evolution, is unshakably established as fact. I'm not interested in debating, with you or others, what the evidence for this may or may not be. Rather, I simply know that it is a fact that many people, particularly educated people, think this. My point instead is that it is utterly important that this not be a barrier to their beliving in Christ. And, IMO, it need not be.

                    For as I stated, there are many, many orthodox, biblically faithful Christians who also think exactly this same thing about the standard scientific and evolutionary accounts.

                    Having worked with college-educated young people for decades, I can tell you that people supposing that these standard scientific accounts are incompatible with Christian belief is one of the biggest obstacles to faith -- causing many who grew up as Christians to doubt and then abandon their faith, and causing many who did not grow up as Christians to stay away from faith in Christ. On the other hand, many who never saw any conflict between these standard scientific accounts and Christian faith -- bibical Christian faith -- come to Christ from non-Christian backgrounds.

                    Thus I fully agree with Saved7: it is important not to allow the relatively minor issue of how to interpret the early chapters of Genesis to be a stumbling block to belief in Christ.

                    In friendship,
                    Scruffy Kid

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here's some stuff for you Paul....




                      http://youtube.com/results?search_qu...ron+o%27reilly
                      Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Look, and listen. 2 Peter 3:8 (King James Version)
                        King James Version (KJV)
                        Public Domain

                        But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

                        If you must believe in the literal 6-days, then don't read 2 Peter.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You can't get around it. The literal reading of the Bible does indicate that its writers held the Earth to be flat.

                          Of course we "cave" to science since science has demonstrated that the Earth is in fact round.

                          We are all guilty of letting science force us to have a more "liberal" reading of the text in the case of the flatness of the Earth.

                          But then people object to letting science imply that we should give a more "liberal" reading to the 6 day creation, after having already let science force them to give up a flat Earth.

                          I say, to be a 6 day-er you have to be a flat Earther, just to be consistent. If you give up the flat Earth you've already committed the "original sin" of "caving" to science.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by punk View Post
                            Of course we "cave" to science since science has demonstrated that the Earth is in fact round.
                            Science did this? The Earth is round with or without science. Sometimes we seem to personify science and what it accomplishes. This adds to the problem IMO. So, in essence, we "cave" to the truth or the knowledge of it. Science's "reputation" is not involved.
                            Originally posted by punk
                            We are all guilty of letting science force us to have a more "liberal" reading of the text in the case of the flatness of the Earth.
                            See what I mean? Science "forcing" us.

                            How about this paradigm: The Bible is the inerrant word of God. So, we are going to reconcile our knowledge (no matter how obtained) with the Bible. In areas where there are "gaps" in knowledge, we trust the Bible first, or "cave in" to the word of God. I don't see ignorance with this practice.

                            God Bless!
                            Watchinginawe

                            I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Firstly let me just say that I am disappointed. The reason I posted this thread was to get help on how to defend these claims against critics. Instead the thread has turned into advice why I should not believe in literal 6 day creation and advice why I should not be using it as an evangelical/apologetics tool (I'm making a generalization here. There were some helpful posts which I tremendously appreciate - thank you).

                              Perhaps this is my fault for not making my intention clear in the first post?

                              What many of you seem to be forgetting (either intentionally or not, I don't know), is the most important element of the verses I posted: the context of them.

                              We all know that the earth is not flat. The aim of the verses I posted is not a science lesson (and therefore not about the shape of the earth). On the other hand, those who believe in literal 6 day creation believe that Genesis 1 is not a science lesson either, but that the science shown in it is literal and true. Especially when this science is compared to evolutionary science. This is what I hoped this thread would be about.

                              I will go through 2 of the examples I posted, but the same methodology can be applied to the rest.


                              Matthew 4:8
                              Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.


                              What is this verse about? Is it about science or is it about temptation? We all know that the purpose of the book of Genesis 1 is to show how God created the (perfect) universe, and how man's choice was sin, and how we need a redeemer. In addition to this, those who believe in literal 6 day creation, also believe that the science contained in Gen 1 is true.

                              In the same way, Matt 4:8 is not meant to be taken as a basis for science, rather, it is meant to be taken as a message of temptation and salvation. Jesus has "walked in our shoes" and was tempted by sin just as we are tempted by sin. Even though He was tempted, He still did not sin. That is a very strong comfort for us and that is the purpose of Matt 4:8.

                              Take Job 38:14 as another example:
                              It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

                              What is the book of Job about? Is it a science lesson, or is it about "why do bad things happen to good people?".
                              Job curses God for being born, afterwards God gives him a speech about how limited and small human understanding is ("Where were you...", "Have you comprehended....", and so on....).
                              When God says that He formed the earth as a seal forms clay, He is saying that He controls the very way the Earth is formed - from every mountain to every valley. Metaphorically - God pushed His "finger" into the "land".
                              This is what I see when I read It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. To me, the meaning of the verse has nothing to do with the shape of the earth, but it has everything to do with God showing Job that He formed it all.



                              Originally posted by okiepastor View Post
                              Look, and listen. 2 Peter 3:8 (King James Version)
                              King James Version (KJV)
                              Public Domain

                              But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

                              If you must believe in the literal 6-days, then don't read 2 Peter.

                              You are taking this verse out of context. Is 2 Peter 3:8 about the age of the universe, or is it about having Christians not lose our faith because we think that God is late in His promises to us? The entire rest of the chapter has nothing to do with science or the age of the earth (it has to do with patience in waiting for our Lord), so why should we pick out this one verse and apply it to that? This verse is obvious in its aim of figure of speech - the Creator is eternal so a 1000 years may as well be compared to 1 day from His viewpoint.

                              Matthew 23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings[/U], but you were not willing.

                              If we take that literally as well, should we believe that God has wings? Of course not, because the context of the verse has nothing to do with whether or not God has wings.


                              Picking out verses and applying them to a scientific context when they were not meant to have a scientific context is an unfair way to debate the issue of young-earth vs old-earth creation. That is why I made this thread and I hoped I would get more help in trying to defend this point. Those who believe in literal 6 day creation, like myself, believe that the science contained in Gen 1 is true to the word, but nonetheless, we realize that the Bible is not meant to be taken as a science text book, therefore you cannot apply everything in it to tested and verified science.


                              I fear that more replies about whether or not 6-day creation is literal or not will just add "fuel the fire" even more and distract from my original intent of the thread. I apologize for not making my intent clear.
                              http://www.mychristiansite.com/personal/vision/ <-- My site. Check it out

                              http://www.freehovind.com Please sign the petition to pardon Kent Hovind.

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