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  • Question about Salvation

    Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum (feel free to move it to the proper one)

    Recently I had a discussion with a friend about Jesus Christ, and how believing in him, accepting him as your personal savior is the only way to be saved and to reach heaven. He replied with "Well, aren't you lucky to be born in the perfect time, and the perfect place for that to happen"

    That got me thinking. When in biblical history did this take effect? When did belief in Christ become the only way to get your salvation? Was it with the birth of Christ? With his death and Resurrection? Or does it go all the way back to the beginning of creation, when it was prophesied that there would be a savior sent to the earth?

    The world is huge, even back in the time of Christ. How far spread was life across the globe, and is it truly fair to punish those who may never have heard the good news, or learned of the prophesied coming of Christ perhaps due in part to the message not being passed down along the generations or not being aware of the birth, death and Resurrection of Christ?

    Just curious, and would love to hear others thoughts

  • #2
    Re: Question about Salvation

    I believe it goes all the way back to creation.

    We needed a savior, because of Adam's sin. I would think that Adam and Eve had to have told someone what God said in Gen 3:15; which was passed on until Christ revealed himself. (The only time in life the telephone game was accurate and correct...cool beans)

    Anyhoo, people in the OT time believed in the promised Messiah, probably with only word of mouth as evidence, but it was still enough to know that he exist and he's coming to save us. Now at that time, they by faith looked towards the Cross and they were also under the law, so it was by faith and their works. When Jesus died on the cross, and paid for the present, past, and future sins of all of mankind, his blood was the atonement for our sins. Heb 9:22 (sumarizing) without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. When something is atone, is means to forgive. So after Christ burial and resurrection, we were now under grace. So just like probably, Adam and Eve spread the word that a messiah was coming, it was written that Jesus told his disciples to spread his gospel, which was to let all men know that he is our Lord and Savior. So, now we look back to the cross, because we believe through faith that it happened. We believe through faith that fact that Jesus died on the cross and was buried and rose again on the 3rd day. This also meant that because Christ shedded his own blood to cover the atonement, we don't have to do anything but believe that through faith. That's why when people add that we still must be good and do this or do that or we'll lose our salvation, I correct them because that's not what the bible says and that's adding works to the grace. Our sins are already nailed to the cross. So, when we confessed that we were sinners and that we needed Jesus and we believed that he died for our sins, along with believe that he was buried and is a risen savior, in that moment we were no longer apart of his world and we no longer had that born given connection with Satan; but we were bought into the family of God through Christ and we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truths.

    The trinity of God (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) has always been at work from creation til the present time and onward. So, the plan of Salvation was always planned and in effect, even in the OT time. We are just lucky to have been born into this time period to be able to tell people about what Christ did for us and to be the bride of Christ. When Revelation 20:6 says Blessed and holy is he who takes part in the first resurrection.

    I remember my Pastor long ago said that no matter what or where we are or were, Christ gospel is being preached and taught. And it's being taught and preached through the body of Christ.
    My favorite quotes from my favorite people

    "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me - Batman/Batman Begins"

    "You got to learn to love yourself" - Grandma

    "I am, who I am; deal with it." - Me

    "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me" - Jesus Christ

    "Whatever" - Mama

    "Ugh!!!!" - Baby Sister

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Question about Salvation

      The Bible says Jesus was "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world".
      Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Question about Salvation

        Originally posted by Jade99 View Post
        I believe it goes all the way back to creation.

        We needed a savior, because of Adam's sin. I would think that Adam and Eve had to have told someone what God said in Gen 3:15; which was passed on until Christ revealed himself. (The only time in life the telephone game was accurate and correct...cool beans)

        Anyhoo, people in the OT time believed in the promised Messiah, probably with only word of mouth as evidence, but it was still enough to know that he exist and he's coming to save us. Now at that time, they by faith looked towards the Cross and they were also under the law, so it was by faith and their works. When Jesus died on the cross, and paid for the present, past, and future sins of all of mankind, his blood was the atonement for our sins. Heb 9:22 (sumarizing) without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. When something is atone, is means to forgive. So after Christ burial and resurrection, we were now under grace. So just like probably, Adam and Eve spread the word that a messiah was coming, it was written that Jesus told his disciples to spread his gospel, which was to let all men know that he is our Lord and Savior. So, now we look back to the cross, because we believe through faith that it happened. We believe through faith that fact that Jesus died on the cross and was buried and rose again on the 3rd day. This also meant that because Christ shedded his own blood to cover the atonement, we don't have to do anything but believe that through faith. That's why when people add that we still must be good and do this or do that or we'll lose our salvation, I correct them because that's not what the bible says and that's adding works to the grace. Our sins are already nailed to the cross. So, when we confessed that we were sinners and that we needed Jesus and we believed that he died for our sins, along with believe that he was buried and is a risen savior, in that moment we were no longer apart of his world and we no longer had that born given connection with Satan; but we were bought into the family of God through Christ and we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truths.

        The trinity of God (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) has always been at work from creation til the present time and onward. So, the plan of Salvation was always planned and in effect, even in the OT time. We are just lucky to have been born into this time period to be able to tell people about what Christ did for us and to be the bride of Christ. When Revelation 20:6 says Blessed and holy is he who takes part in the first resurrection.

        I remember my Pastor long ago said that no matter what or where we are or were, Christ gospel is being preached and taught. And it's being taught and preached through the body of Christ.
        Yes, but, in the hundreds of years, there have been those that had turned their backs on the promised coming, and thus not passed on those teachings. So, perhaps, there were those that never learned of the promised coming, and those who did believe in the promised coming that never knew or heard that he came. Not everyone lived in that surrounding area so the possibility of those who were not aware of his coming that had died. Are their souls lost because the message was never delivered to them back in the early first century or two?

        Now a days, with evangelists traveling the world spreading the good news, chances are everyone has at least heard of Jesus Christ. But what about back when Christ first walked on the planet and died. His message was "whoever believes in me will have eternal life" and that he was "the only way to God". So, I guess my point was, what happened to those in the remote places around the world who never heard of his coming after he came? Were they given a pass on that because they had not heard, thus not having a chance to believe and accept?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Question about Salvation

          Originally posted by Bnjmn View Post
          Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum (feel free to move it to the proper one)

          Recently I had a discussion with a friend about Jesus Christ, and how believing in him, accepting him as your personal savior is the only way to be saved and to reach heaven. He replied with "Well, aren't you lucky to be born in the perfect time, and the perfect place for that to happen"

          That got me thinking. When in biblical history did this take effect? When did belief in Christ become the only way to get your salvation? Was it with the birth of Christ? With his death and Resurrection? Or does it go all the way back to the beginning of creation, when it was prophesied that there would be a savior sent to the earth?

          The world is huge, even back in the time of Christ. How far spread was life across the globe, and is it truly fair to punish those who may never have heard the good news, or learned of the prophesied coming of Christ perhaps due in part to the message not being passed down along the generations or not being aware of the birth, death and Resurrection of Christ?

          Just curious, and would love to hear others thoughts
          You are correct. By far NOT everybody will hear the gospel. But the problem is not with the bible. The problem is that since Constantine married the Church and State in about 313 AD, the prevailing doctrine, a Roman one, is that if one is good one goes to a "Celestial Lodge" of bliss, and if one is evil, one goes to "hell", a place undefined because they also teach that the earth will be annihilated. After the reformation, except for few voices, the reformed Churches embraced this age old doctrine but modified it to be what it is today. That is; "believe in Jesus and go to heaven, or if you don't you go to hell."

          Despite the fact that of the approximate 290 mentions of the words "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenlies" in the New Testament, and the fact that not one single verse containing these words says this, Christians worldwide hold to this cherished fable. But if the bible is taken literally, accurately and word-true, the story is quite different.

          The end of the bible should be the best clue. It ends with a heavenly City, which is made of Jews (the gates), Christians (the foundations and walls), has Christ and the glory of God, is for ruling the earth and is the same shape as the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle and Temple where God lived, ON EARTH. It comes from heaven to earth, showing its nature and origin, but also showing its final resting place. And this City is the dwelling place of God, Christ, Jew and Christian, and CERTAIN of the nations can visit it. By Revelation Chapter 20, after Christ has reigned on earth for 1'000 years, ALL men are resurrected. That is, they have a body and live on a renewed earth (lit. Greek) on which this City abides.

          When God chose Abraham and his seed to "bless all the families of the earth", it entailed three things.
          1. A new government on earth that would be righteous and profit all men (2nd Pet.3:13)
          2. A restored creation that would not be subject to corruption anymore (Romans Chapter 8)
          3. The giving of the Holy Spirit to them who wanted it, that is, men could partake of the divine nature (2nd Pet.1:4)


          Nowhere is the promise given that all men would hear the gospel. But nowhere does it say that all men go to "hell". Only those men who actively oppose God, and/or overthrow their consciences to do evil, go to the Lake of Fire (Isa.66:22-24; Rom.2:14-16). Notice that all judgements in the bible are based on works (Matt.25:31-43; Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Rev.20:13), not the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

          If you are able to overthrow the fable of men going to heaven for believing in Jesus Christ, the rest is a matter of reading the bible. If you desperately need a future in heaven, and wish to embrace this hope, even a book on this will not help. If you have the time, and energy to research, this matter was thrashed out about 6 months ago on this Forum with quite some energetic debate. But to date, despite multiple challenges, no one has yet come up with a verse, or two, that shows men's destiny is heaven. Much more, God made man for the earth (Gen.1:26-28) and He hasn't changed His mind (Psalm 8.4-9; Hebrews 2:5-8). Our Lord Jesus and His overcoming saints will rule this earth forever (Rev.22:5).

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Question about Salvation

            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            You are correct. By far NOT everybody will hear the gospel. But the problem is not with the bible. The problem is that since Constantine married the Church and State in about 313 AD, the prevailing doctrine, a Roman one, is that if one is good one goes to a "Celestial Lodge" of bliss, and if one is evil, one goes to "hell", a place undefined because they also teach that the earth will be annihilated. After the reformation, except for few voices, the reformed Churches embraced this age old doctrine but modified it to be what it is today. That is; "believe in Jesus and go to heaven, or if you don't you go to hell."

            Despite the fact that of the approximate 290 mentions of the words "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenlies" in the New Testament, and the fact that not one single verse containing these words says this, Christians worldwide hold to this cherished fable. But if the bible is taken literally, accurately and word-true, the story is quite different.

            The end of the bible should be the best clue. It ends with a heavenly City, which is made of Jews (the gates), Christians (the foundations and walls), has Christ and the glory of God, is for ruling the earth and is the same shape as the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle and Temple where God lived, ON EARTH. It comes from heaven to earth, showing its nature and origin, but also showing its final resting place. And this City is the dwelling place of God, Christ, Jew and Christian, and CERTAIN of the nations can visit it. By Revelation Chapter 20, after Christ has reigned on earth for 1'000 years, ALL men are resurrected. That is, they have a body and live on a renewed earth (lit. Greek) on which this City abides.

            When God chose Abraham and his seed to "bless all the families of the earth", it entailed three things.
            1. A new government on earth that would be righteous and profit all men (2nd Pet.3:13)
            2. A restored creation that would not be subject to corruption anymore (Romans Chapter 8)
            3. The giving of the Holy Spirit to them who wanted it, that is, men could partake of the divine nature (2nd Pet.1:4)


            Nowhere is the promise given that all men would hear the gospel. But nowhere does it say that all men go to "hell". Only those men who actively oppose God, and/or overthrow their consciences to do evil, go to the Lake of Fire (Isa.66:22-24; Rom.2:14-16). Notice that all judgements in the bible are based on works (Matt.25:31-43; Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Rev.20:13), not the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

            If you are able to overthrow the fable of men going to heaven for believing in Jesus Christ, the rest is a matter of reading the bible. If you desperately need a future in heaven, and wish to embrace this hope, even a book on this will not help. If you have the time, and energy to research, this matter was thrashed out about 6 months ago on this Forum with quite some energetic debate. But to date, despite multiple challenges, no one has yet come up with a verse, or two, that shows men's destiny is heaven. Much more, God made man for the earth (Gen.1:26-28) and He hasn't changed His mind (Psalm 8.4-9; Hebrews 2:5-8). Our Lord Jesus and His overcoming saints will rule this earth forever (Rev.22:5).
            and there it is!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Question about Salvation

              Putting faith in the Word has always lead to man's righteousness. Word became flesh, this is Jesus after His birth. All salvation is by faith in the Word but salvations was thru the Word dieing on the cross because, those were righteous had faith in the Word as Christ died they were saved.
              Live the Halleluyah life

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Question about Salvation

                Originally posted by Walls View Post
                You are correct. By far NOT everybody will hear the gospel. But the problem is not with the bible. The problem is that since Constantine married the Church and State in about 313 AD, the prevailing doctrine, a Roman one, is that if one is good one goes to a "Celestial Lodge" of bliss, and if one is evil, one goes to "hell", a place undefined because they also teach that the earth will be annihilated. After the reformation, except for few voices, the reformed Churches embraced this age old doctrine but modified it to be what it is today. That is; "believe in Jesus and go to heaven, or if you don't you go to hell."

                Despite the fact that of the approximate 290 mentions of the words "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenlies" in the New Testament, and the fact that not one single verse containing these words says this, Christians worldwide hold to this cherished fable. But if the bible is taken literally, accurately and word-true, the story is quite different.

                The end of the bible should be the best clue. It ends with a heavenly City, which is made of Jews (the gates), Christians (the foundations and walls), has Christ and the glory of God, is for ruling the earth and is the same shape as the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle and Temple where God lived, ON EARTH. It comes from heaven to earth, showing its nature and origin, but also showing its final resting place. And this City is the dwelling place of God, Christ, Jew and Christian, and CERTAIN of the nations can visit it. By Revelation Chapter 20, after Christ has reigned on earth for 1'000 years, ALL men are resurrected. That is, they have a body and live on a renewed earth (lit. Greek) on which this City abides.

                When God chose Abraham and his seed to "bless all the families of the earth", it entailed three things.
                1. A new government on earth that would be righteous and profit all men (2nd Pet.3:13)
                2. A restored creation that would not be subject to corruption anymore (Romans Chapter 8)
                3. The giving of the Holy Spirit to them who wanted it, that is, men could partake of the divine nature (2nd Pet.1:4)


                Nowhere is the promise given that all men would hear the gospel. But nowhere does it say that all men go to "hell". Only those men who actively oppose God, and/or overthrow their consciences to do evil, go to the Lake of Fire (Isa.66:22-24; Rom.2:14-16). Notice that all judgements in the bible are based on works (Matt.25:31-43; Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Rev.20:13), not the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

                If you are able to overthrow the fable of men going to heaven for believing in Jesus Christ, the rest is a matter of reading the bible. If you desperately need a future in heaven, and wish to embrace this hope, even a book on this will not help. If you have the time, and energy to research, this matter was thrashed out about 6 months ago on this Forum with quite some energetic debate. But to date, despite multiple challenges, no one has yet come up with a verse, or two, that shows men's destiny is heaven. Much more, God made man for the earth (Gen.1:26-28) and He hasn't changed His mind (Psalm 8.4-9; Hebrews 2:5-8). Our Lord Jesus and His overcoming saints will rule this earth forever (Rev.22:5).
                It is not unusual for people to latch on to the idea of spending eternity in Heaven. We fail to think of much beyond tomorrow most of the time anyway. We learn about being with Christ when we are absent from the body, and then we stop reading. That is all that some need to know. Everything will be good after that point, so we stop reading.

                Then someone mentions the New Jerusalem and we are lost. I think we stop listening as well.

                However, your words:
                Notice that all judgements in the bible are based on works (Matt.25:31-43; Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Rev.20:13), not the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
                can be seen as saying that commitment to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation. It seems that you are saying that it is all about how good we are while on Earth.

                Is that what you are saying?
                Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
                George Orwell

                www.r2ucv.com



                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Question about Salvation

                  Originally posted by Walls View Post
                  You are correct. By far NOT everybody will hear the gospel. But the problem is not with the bible. The problem is that since Constantine married the Church and State in about 313 AD, the prevailing doctrine, a Roman one, is that if one is good one goes to a "Celestial Lodge" of bliss, and if one is evil, one goes to "hell", a place undefined because they also teach that the earth will be annihilated. After the reformation, except for few voices, the reformed Churches embraced this age old doctrine but modified it to be what it is today. That is; "believe in Jesus and go to heaven, or if you don't you go to hell."

                  Despite the fact that of the approximate 290 mentions of the words "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenlies" in the New Testament, and the fact that not one single verse containing these words says this, Christians worldwide hold to this cherished fable. But if the bible is taken literally, accurately and word-true, the story is quite different.

                  The end of the bible should be the best clue. It ends with a heavenly City, which is made of Jews (the gates), Christians (the foundations and walls), has Christ and the glory of God, is for ruling the earth and is the same shape as the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle and Temple where God lived, ON EARTH. It comes from heaven to earth, showing its nature and origin, but also showing its final resting place. And this City is the dwelling place of God, Christ, Jew and Christian, and CERTAIN of the nations can visit it. By Revelation Chapter 20, after Christ has reigned on earth for 1'000 years, ALL men are resurrected. That is, they have a body and live on a renewed earth (lit. Greek) on which this City abides.

                  When God chose Abraham and his seed to "bless all the families of the earth", it entailed three things.
                  1. A new government on earth that would be righteous and profit all men (2nd Pet.3:13)
                  2. A restored creation that would not be subject to corruption anymore (Romans Chapter 8)
                  3. The giving of the Holy Spirit to them who wanted it, that is, men could partake of the divine nature (2nd Pet.1:4)


                  Nowhere is the promise given that all men would hear the gospel. But nowhere does it say that all men go to "hell". Only those men who actively oppose God, and/or overthrow their consciences to do evil, go to the Lake of Fire (Isa.66:22-24; Rom.2:14-16). Notice that all judgements in the bible are based on works (Matt.25:31-43; Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Rev.20:13), not the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

                  If you are able to overthrow the fable of men going to heaven for believing in Jesus Christ, the rest is a matter of reading the bible. If you desperately need a future in heaven, and wish to embrace this hope, even a book on this will not help. If you have the time, and energy to research, this matter was thrashed out about 6 months ago on this Forum with quite some energetic debate. But to date, despite multiple challenges, no one has yet come up with a verse, or two, that shows men's destiny is heaven. Much more, God made man for the earth (Gen.1:26-28) and He hasn't changed His mind (Psalm 8.4-9; Hebrews 2:5-8). Our Lord Jesus and His overcoming saints will rule this earth forever (Rev.22:5).
                  Another from me too.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Question about Salvation

                    Originally posted by Boo View Post
                    However, your words: can be seen as saying that commitment to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation. It seems that you are saying that it is all about how good we are while on Earth.

                    Is that what you are saying?
                    I have always been taught that it was commitment to Christ that leads to salvation, and not your works.

                    Ephesians 2:8-9
                    New International Version (NIV)
                    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

                    I have always taken that as you cannot earn your way into heaven

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Question about Salvation

                      Originally posted by Boo View Post
                      However, your words: can be seen as saying that commitment to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation. It seems that you are saying that it is all about how good we are while on Earth.

                      Is that what you are saying?
                      In a recent (maybe last year) thread on "who was written in the Lamb's book of life", debate raged energetically on this Forum. There is much in this thread to answer you. But for newcomers, here is a short summary.

                      But first, it was encouraging that readers read those verses on the judgment seat of Christ for Jew, Christian and the nations, and realize that at each judgement (which starts with the Christians - 1st Pet.4:17), works are judged. So what does the believer escape from compared to the Jew and the nations - both unbelievers?

                      The answer lies in what man was made for. Man was made a vessel to contain God, His life and His power so as to;
                      1. Display God (be in His image and likeness)
                      2. Be Christ's Bride (a help "meet" or "up to the standard of" Christ)
                      3. Subdue and Rule the earth (a matter of authority and power)
                      4. Fence about and Bring to Order a Garden of fellowship between God and man (a matter of building with divine attributes)


                      If any man attains to these four things he enters a state of enjoyment known only to the divine nature of God. If any man does not attain to these things he suffers the loss of this high standard of bliss. If any man does not attain to these things AND incurs God's wrath, he experiences a desperate lack of well-being called "perdition" or "destruction" in scripture (lit. Greek).

                      The condition for reaching the peak of bliss, or "well-being", is to partake of God's divine nature AND be found in His presence and approval. It is called ENTERING "the joy of the Lord" (Matt.25:21-23), or the supreme and eternal pleasure an man can enjoy of God's presence (Ps.16:11, 36:8). The condition for reaching the lowest degraded state of perdition is to be a fallen, unregenerate man who went against God actively (Isa.66:22-24) and who is driven away from God into active and eternal pain ("depart...ye cursed... everlasting fire" - Matt.25:41).

                      To reach the first mentioned complete bliss is to be fully saved. Full salvation is when the spirit of man is regenerated in rebirth by faith in the completed works of Christ (Jn.3:6), the soul of man is transformed into the image of Christ by a cooperation of man denying himself and the working of the Holy Spirit (Matt.10:39, 16:25 etc + 2nd Cor.3:18), and the body of this man partake of the "first resurrection." The Greek word for "first" does not mean first in time, but "first" in importance, and it is to be gained by effort (Phil.3:11; Rev.20:6).

                      The Jew and members of the nations can reach bliss, but at the human level. When Israel is restored at our Lord Jesus Christ's return, they will enjoy all that a man can enjoy. That is, the produce of their Land, no wars, no death, peace, blessings, big harvests, prosperity and the knowledge that they are the leading and favored nation on earth with Christ dwelling in their midst. Likewise, when men of the nation are all finally resurrected, they live on a renewed (or pristine) earth with no more curse (work and childbearing pains), no more war, righteous and incorruptible government, no more death, and they may visit God in the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:26) on this pristine earth.

                      Those who were judged by the One Who has all the facts, our Lord Jesus, and found to be enemies of God and His purposes, will be consigned to a state of eternal "lack of well-being", that is, physical and psychological suffering. Their "worm" (which eats the insides) and their "fire" (which causes excruciating pain on the outside) will never be quenched throughout eternity future (Isa.66:24). In their case God makes good His promise of Matthew 10:28. Both the body and soul suffer in Gehenna (rendered "hell" in some translations).

                      Finally, it stands to reason that a Christian can believe and be born again in his spirit. But he can thereafter lead a life of fleshliness, ill discipline, worldliness, sinfulness and sloth. Most of the warnings of the New Testament are directed at these Christians. They are children of God, have God's divine life (2nd Pet.1:3-4), BUT.... at the Judgement Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10), their works are found wanting (Gal.5:16, 19-21; Eph.5:5). Because they did not overcome, they are "hurt" of the second death (Rev.2:11). To be "hurt" means that you do not go to the second death - which is "perdition", but you temporarily suffer it's effects.

                      I hope this very brief summary of salvation, as it is revealed in the bible, will start the Christian on his/her way to fully give him/herself to Christ, deny the soul, carry a cross daily (a cross kills the flesh), build a loving relationship with our beloved Savior Jesus Christ, and strive to be righteous in his/her actions and obedient to the Holy Spirit which dwells in us.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Question about Salvation

                        Originally posted by Bnjmn View Post
                        I have always been taught that it was commitment to Christ that leads to salvation, and not your works.

                        Ephesians 2:8-9
                        New International Version (NIV)
                        8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

                        I have always taken that as you cannot earn your way into heaven
                        You are correct in saying that we cannot earn our salvation by works, and this is exactly what Eph. 2:8-9 teaches us. But this is not the same as doing works of obedience commanded by Christ. Consider these verses: Rom. 2:6; Rev.20:12; Jas . 2:14-26; as well as the parable of the talents. Again, no matter how hard we work or how many works we do, we cannot earn our salvation but that doesn't mean we can ignore his commands and
                        still be acceptable to Christ.
                        "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness : That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. II Tim. 3:16,17.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Question about Salvation

                          Originally posted by Bnjmn View Post
                          Yes, but, in the hundreds of years, there have been those that had turned their backs on the promised coming, and thus not passed on those teachings. So, perhaps, there were those that never learned of the promised coming, and those who did believe in the promised coming that never knew or heard that he came. Not everyone lived in that surrounding area so the possibility of those who were not aware of his coming that had died. Are their souls lost because the message was never delivered to them back in the early first century or two?

                          Now a days, with evangelists traveling the world spreading the good news, chances are everyone has at least heard of Jesus Christ. But what about back when Christ first walked on the planet and died. His message was "whoever believes in me will have eternal life" and that he was "the only way to God". So, I guess my point was, what happened to those in the remote places around the world who never heard of his coming after he came? Were they given a pass on that because they had not heard, thus not having a chance to believe and accept?
                          I see what you're saying. I think this kind of explain it a little better. I got it from gotquestions.org

                          Question: "How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?"

                          Answer: Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

                          The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (see also Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

                          What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

                          Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).

                          What about believers in Christ's day, prior to the cross and resurrection? What did they believe? Did they understand the full picture of Christ dying on a cross for their sins? Late in His ministry, “Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life” (Matthew 16:21-22). What was the reaction of His disciples to this message? “Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘Never, Lord!’ he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!’” Peter and the other disciples did not know the full truth, yet they were saved because they believed that God would take care of their sin problem. They didn't exactly know how He would accomplish that, any more than Adam, Abraham, Moses, or David knew how, but they believed God.

                          Today, we have more revelation than the people living before the resurrection of Christ; we know the full picture. “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:1-2). Our salvation is still based on the death of Christ, our faith is still the requirement for salvation, and the object of our faith is still God. Today, for us, the content of our faith is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).



                          Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/before-J...#ixzz2X9QG0rPV
                          My favorite quotes from my favorite people

                          "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me - Batman/Batman Begins"

                          "You got to learn to love yourself" - Grandma

                          "I am, who I am; deal with it." - Me

                          "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me" - Jesus Christ

                          "Whatever" - Mama

                          "Ugh!!!!" - Baby Sister

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Question about Salvation

                            Here is another explaination

                            Question: "What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?"

                            Answer:
                            All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.” The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

                            In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle—everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

                            The problem is “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a “god” of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

                            Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God.

                            If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?



                            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/never-he...#ixzz2X9QO2qtb
                            My favorite quotes from my favorite people

                            "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me - Batman/Batman Begins"

                            "You got to learn to love yourself" - Grandma

                            "I am, who I am; deal with it." - Me

                            "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me" - Jesus Christ

                            "Whatever" - Mama

                            "Ugh!!!!" - Baby Sister

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Question about Salvation

                              Originally posted by Walls View Post
                              In a recent (maybe last year) thread on "who was written in the Lamb's book of life", debate raged energetically on this Forum. There is much in this thread to answer you. But for newcomers, here is a short summary.

                              But first, it was encouraging that readers read those verses on the judgment seat of Christ for Jew, Christian and the nations, and realize that at each judgement (which starts with the Christians - 1st Pet.4:17), works are judged. So what does the believer escape from compared to the Jew and the nations - both unbelievers?

                              The answer lies in what man was made for. Man was made a vessel to contain God, His life and His power so as to;
                              1. Display God (be in His image and likeness)
                              2. Be Christ's Bride (a help "meet" or "up to the standard of" Christ)
                              3. Subdue and Rule the earth (a matter of authority and power)
                              4. Fence about and Bring to Order a Garden of fellowship between God and man (a matter of building with divine attributes)


                              If any man attains to these four things he enters a state of enjoyment known only to the divine nature of God. If any man does not attain to these things he suffers the loss of this high standard of bliss. If any man does not attain to these things AND incurs God's wrath, he experiences a desperate lack of well-being called "perdition" or "destruction" in scripture (lit. Greek).

                              The condition for reaching the peak of bliss, or "well-being", is to partake of God's divine nature AND be found in His presence and approval. It is called ENTERING "the joy of the Lord" (Matt.25:21-23), or the supreme and eternal pleasure an man can enjoy of God's presence (Ps.16:11, 36:8). The condition for reaching the lowest degraded state of perdition is to be a fallen, unregenerate man who went against God actively (Isa.66:22-24) and who is driven away from God into active and eternal pain ("depart...ye cursed... everlasting fire" - Matt.25:41).

                              To reach the first mentioned complete bliss is to be fully saved. Full salvation is when the spirit of man is regenerated in rebirth by faith in the completed works of Christ (Jn.3:6), the soul of man is transformed into the image of Christ by a cooperation of man denying himself and the working of the Holy Spirit (Matt.10:39, 16:25 etc + 2nd Cor.3:18), and the body of this man partake of the "first resurrection." The Greek word for "first" does not mean first in time, but "first" in importance, and it is to be gained by effort (Phil.3:11; Rev.20:6).

                              The Jew and members of the nations can reach bliss, but at the human level. When Israel is restored at our Lord Jesus Christ's return, they will enjoy all that a man can enjoy. That is, the produce of their Land, no wars, no death, peace, blessings, big harvests, prosperity and the knowledge that they are the leading and favored nation on earth with Christ dwelling in their midst. Likewise, when men of the nation are all finally resurrected, they live on a renewed (or pristine) earth with no more curse (work and childbearing pains), no more war, righteous and incorruptible government, no more death, and they may visit God in the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:26) on this pristine earth.

                              Those who were judged by the One Who has all the facts, our Lord Jesus, and found to be enemies of God and His purposes, will be consigned to a state of eternal "lack of well-being", that is, physical and psychological suffering. Their "worm" (which eats the insides) and their "fire" (which causes excruciating pain on the outside) will never be quenched throughout eternity future (Isa.66:24). In their case God makes good His promise of Matthew 10:28. Both the body and soul suffer in Gehenna (rendered "hell" in some translations).

                              Finally, it stands to reason that a Christian can believe and be born again in his spirit. But he can thereafter lead a life of fleshliness, ill discipline, worldliness, sinfulness and sloth. Most of the warnings of the New Testament are directed at these Christians. They are children of God, have God's divine life (2nd Pet.1:3-4), BUT.... at the Judgement Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10), their works are found wanting (Gal.5:16, 19-21; Eph.5:5). Because they did not overcome, they are "hurt" of the second death (Rev.2:11). To be "hurt" means that you do not go to the second death - which is "perdition", but you temporarily suffer it's effects.

                              I hope this very brief summary of salvation, as it is revealed in the bible, will start the Christian on his/her way to fully give him/herself to Christ, deny the soul, carry a cross daily (a cross kills the flesh), build a loving relationship with our beloved Savior Jesus Christ, and strive to be righteous in his/her actions and obedient to the Holy Spirit which dwells in us.
                              I think I see what you are saying - once saved, always saved. Live the way you want to, and you'll still be saved. Those warnings of being removed from the vine didn't mean what I thought they mean, then. Enduring to the end really didn't mean what I thought, either. We are not, then, required to love Jesus. Even though He told us "If you love me, you will obey my commandments," we can ignore Him and still be His. Is all of this in agreement with what you posted?

                              Thanks.
                              Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
                              George Orwell

                              www.r2ucv.com



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