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  • Pre-Fall Death?

    Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

    I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

    Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

    I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.

    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  • #2
    Re: Pre-Fall Death?

    Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
    Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

    I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

    Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

    I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.

    Can't argue with you about the vegetation point.

    No mention of Carnivores before the fall. (see Genesis 1:30)

    No mention of man eating meat until after the flood. (see Genesis 9:3)

    I love meat!!

    Probably the first animal deaths were the ones God used to clothe Adam and Eve. (typology of Christ's sacrifice?)

    Not only did man fall, but the whole creation fell with him. (Romans 8:19-22)

    Blessings
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Pre-Fall Death?

      Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
      Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

      I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

      Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

      I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.

      There are many that believe that along with the curse and death God also made at that time adjustment in the digestive systems in animals to enable them to survive the changes to the environment.

      Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
      And you will eat the plants of the field;”

      Prior to the fall man’s digestive system worked with fruits now it has to work with the plants of the field as well.

      Prior to the curse the animals were all herbivores

      Gen 1:30 “and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.”

      So the change in the animals digestive system after the fall from all herbivores to herbivores, carnivores and omnivores is not inconceivable.
      "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
      C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

      "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
      "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

      "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
      "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
      "Our Hope is unchanged"
      "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Pre-Fall Death?

        Originally posted by glad4mercy View Post
        No mention of Carnivores before the fall. (see Genesis 1:30)
        I wonder if this means all animals were herbivores until the Fall, or if God created the carnivores after the Fall (I think the first one). I still think though that this means death was necessary in at least plants.

        No mention of man eating meat until after the flood. (see Genesis 9:3)
        Yeah, I remember reading that before. It's what I cite when people ask why I don't eat a lot of meat

        Not only did man fall, but the whole creation fell with him. (Romans 8:19-22)
        Okay didn't know this part!
        「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
        撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Pre-Fall Death?

          Originally posted by Old man View Post
          There are many that believe that along with the curse and death God also made at that time adjustment in the digestive systems in animals to enable them to survive the changes to the environment.

          Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
          And you will eat the plants of the field;”

          Prior to the fall man’s digestive system worked with fruits now it has to work with the plants of the field as well.

          Prior to the curse the animals were all herbivores

          Gen 1:30 “and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.”

          So the change in the animals digestive system after the fall from all herbivores to herbivores, carnivores and omnivores is not inconceivable.
          Great post, brother!!

          Originally posted by Old man View Post
          There are many that believe that along with the curse and death God also made at that time adjustment in the digestive systems in animals to enable them to survive the changes to the environment.

          Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
          And you will eat the plants of the field;”

          Prior to the fall man’s digestive system worked with fruits now it has to work with the plants of the field as well.

          Prior to the curse the animals were all herbivores

          Gen 1:30 “and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.”

          So the change in the animals digestive system after the fall from all herbivores to herbivores, carnivores and omnivores is not inconceivable.
          Great post, brother!!
          1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

          2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

          "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Pre-Fall Death?



            Those teeth are not for eating plants.
            Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
            Ecc 7:10

            John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Pre-Fall Death?

              I wonder if this means all animals were herbivores until the Fall, or if God created the carnivores after the Fall (I think the first one).
              I think the animals were all herbivores until the fall as well. I agree with you.

              Yeah, I remember reading that before. It's what I cite when people ask why I don't eat a lot of meat
              I'm pretty much a ravening, meat eating carnivore, so we balance each other out.

              Okay didn't know this part!
              Yes, not only did the Fall bring death it also brought disease, sickness, birth defects, and the cataclysms of nature as we know them to both man and beast.

              When Christ returns, not only will we have new bodies, but there will be a new heavens and a new earth. I may be wrong, but I see some similarities between the resurrection of our bodies and the destruction of the present Kosmos followed by a new creation, where all things are new. We can only imagine how beautiful and awesome it will be. No more sin, death, disease, decay, war, famine, or any other thing caused by the Fall. Jesus said "Behold, I make all things new"
              1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

              2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

              "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Pre-Fall Death?

                Originally posted by teddyv View Post
                Those teeth are not for eating plants.
                What about man-eating monster plants??

                「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
                撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Pre-Fall Death?

                  Originally posted by Aviyah View Post
                  What about man-eating monster plants??

                  Not sure about those. Never saw the movie. Was it radiation? Certainly post-Flood.
                  Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
                  Ecc 7:10

                  John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Pre-Fall Death?

                    Originally posted by teddyv View Post


                    Those teeth are not for eating plants.
                    See post 3. I believe that things changed radically after the fall.
                    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

                    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

                    "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Pre-Fall Death?

                      Another thought regarding Teddyv's post...

                      We have an immune system, but yet there was no sickness or disease that we know of before the fall. Either the immune system developed later, or God made us with it (and Dinosaurs with sharp teeth), knowing as He did that the Fall was going to take place.
                      1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

                      2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

                      "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Pre-Fall Death?

                        Originally posted by teddyv View Post


                        Those teeth are not for eating plants.
                        Physiological changes also took place at that time:

                        Gen 3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;”

                        The serpent was reduced to crawling on its belly where before it did not (otherwise why mention the crawling).

                        Gen 3:16 “To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

                        Prior to the fall childbirth would have been painless this indicates a change in physiology not just the chemical processes of a dietary change.

                        Many of the changes had to take place for survival in a (basically) new world and not as part of the curse. The resulting curse required that things change in order for God’s creation to operate with some degree of temporary success.
                        "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
                        C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

                        "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
                        "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

                        "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
                        "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
                        "Our Hope is unchanged"
                        "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Pre-Fall Death?

                          Originally posted by glad4mercy View Post
                          Another thought regarding Teddyv's post...

                          We have an immune system, but yet there was no sickness or disease that we know of before the fall. Either the immune system developed later, or God made us with it (and Dinosaurs with sharp teeth), knowing as He did that the Fall was going to take place.
                          It really depends where you stand on origins.

                          Those dinosaurs lived and died so long before humans that it could be considered a poor example. That's where the Gapper's come in to try and square up these issues. (I don't hold to Gap Theory).
                          Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
                          Ecc 7:10

                          John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Pre-Fall Death?

                            Of course there was sickness and disease before the fall.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Pre-Fall Death?

                              Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                              Of course there was sickness and disease before the fall.
                              If you believe this, then you believe that sickness and disease is good, for He looked at all that He made and it was good.

                              If sickness and disease is so good, do you think that there will be sickness and disease in heaven?

                              What was the purpose of sickness and disease in the prefall Kosmos?

                              They that trust the Lord will not lack any good thing. Therefore, if sickness and disease is good, those who trust the Lord will not be lacking in sickness and disease. See what your assertion leads to when it is followed to it's conclusion?
                              1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

                              2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

                              "My heart was once hard and dark. Then God turned on the Light and the Water."

                              Comment

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