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  • How important is ordination by who

    What is ordination

    A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

    If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

    Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

    Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

    What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

    Who ordains and what is required?

    Take your time but please weigh in…

    In His love
    Brother Paul

  • #2
    Re: How important is ordination by who

    The advantage of a Bible School education is that in the better, or more renowned schools, one gets the benefit of a structured education with inputs from a vast array of sources.

    The disadvantage of a Bible School education is that every single bible school in the world subscribes to a certain doctrine, and this is taught as truth, stunting the education of the scholar. If he/she does not agree with a certain doctrine he/she will fail the exams set forth for the qualification. Thus, no Bible School student is truly qualified by the Lord, but by men.

    The Bible has only one indication of any type of schooling outside the Local Church. That is, Paul's classrooms in Acts 28:23-31. Otherwise the Local Church, with its gifted ones, especially the teachers, are responsible for this education. It is, in 1 Timothy 3:15, "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

    I think the best education would be an accredited Bible College followed by another 4-8 years of personal study independent of any learning institute. But I fear that the Bible College will forever cement its questionable doctrines in the mind of the student, and leave him/her closed to radical change, should it be required.

    The short answer is that Bible Colleges are unknown to scripture. The Church is responsible. But it would seem, based on history, starting with Paul, that the Lord used men who had some form of formal education for discovering or recovering the greater truths, even if they had to overthrow most of what they learned formally. E.g. the Plymouth Brethren with its array of scholars each challenging everything everybody else said.

    There is also no authority but the Holy Spirit Who can give a man or woman any ministry. Ordination by men after the last of the Apostles is unknown to scripture.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: How important is ordination by who

      Ordination is by the choice of God by the Spirit.

      Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


      Men can also be moved by the Spirit to confirm a man in ordination. But we don't see this very much because of the rarity of apostles and that level of ministry.

      God Personally anoints and prepares His workers to do His will with or without an intermediary.

      Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



      sigpic
      מרן אתא

      Walk in the Light!
      התהלכו באור

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: How important is ordination by who

        Take for example Dwight L. Moody had only a fifth grade education, no bible college, and no ordination. He became one of the leading evangelists of the 19th century.

        Charles Finny never went to seminary (it is said that the church prepared him) but he was ordained by the church to teach for them.

        Beware of any institution that teaches you their doctrine. Learn what the bible says, fully, before you decide that you land on the truth.

        Let God put you to work. Sadly, people now believe that it takes some kind of certificate to qualify a preacher. It does not - it takes the Holy Spirit. People won't wish to believe that.

        The Pastor of the Brooklyn Tabernacle, Jim Cymbala, never went to seminary. Yet, that church has spawned several other churches and shepherds thousands every week.

        I think one of our forum members can tell you about the Blacksmith Preacher - famous throughout Tennessee and Kentucky. She is kin to him and he was never at seminary either.

        It is sad to see those who can do God's work ignored today for the lack of a certificate. We are supposed to know our bibles to determine is a preacher is true or not. I guess we don't want to; we'll use their diploma instead.
        Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
        George Orwell

        www.r2ucv.com



        Comment


        • #5
          Re: How important is ordination by who

          Originally posted by Brother Paul View Post
          What is ordination

          A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

          If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

          Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

          Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

          What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

          Who ordains and what is required?

          Take your time but please weigh in…

          In His love
          Brother Paul
          In simple terms, I've seen it used by a local group of believers [the local church] to recognize the gift of preaching and teaching of the gospel, so as to be under the protection and authority of the local church body. ie, He represents the understandings of the local body and can speak/represent with the local church's endorsement as well as train and teach the local body.

          Originally posted by Brother Paul View Post
          What is ordination

          A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

          If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

          Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

          Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

          What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

          Who ordains and what is required?

          Take your time but please weigh in…

          In His love
          Brother Paul
          In simple terms, I've seen it used by a local group of believers [the local church] to recognize the gift of preaching and teaching of the gospel, so as to be under the protection and authority of the local church body. ie, He represents the understandings of the local body and can speak/represent with the local church's endorsement as well as train and teach the local body.
          "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
          Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
          ... there are few who find it."


          -----------------------------------------------

          * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

          The New American Standard Bible®,
          Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
          1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
          Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

          Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: How important is ordination by who

            Originally posted by Redeemed by Grace View Post
            In simple terms, I've seen it used by a local group of believers [the local church] to recognize the gift of preaching and teaching of the gospel, so as to be under the protection and authority of the local church body. ie, He represents the understandings of the local body and can speak/represent with the local church's endorsement as well as train and teach the local body.



            In simple terms, I've seen it used by a local group of believers [the local church] to recognize the gift of preaching and teaching of the gospel, so as to be under the protection and authority of the local church body. ie, He represents the understandings of the local body and can speak/represent with the local church's endorsement as well as train and teach the local body.
            How does one guard against "heaping up teachers for ourselves?"

            Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



            sigpic
            מרן אתא

            Walk in the Light!
            התהלכו באור

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: How important is ordination by who

              Originally posted by Brother Paul View Post
              What is ordination

              A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

              If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

              Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

              Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

              What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

              Who ordains and what is required?

              Take your time but please weigh in…

              In His love
              Brother Paul
              I believe it is God and God alone who ordains a man (or woman) to do a certain work. At our congregation, myself and the other 2 elders will simply watch the congregation and see who begins to act in a certain capacity. For example, we had an elder move to another state and needed to replace him. We waited many months until we were sure that God had raised another individual for that work. We didn't have to discuss anything with anyone, by observation (and then by verifying through prayer) we installed the man who was already performing the role of a shepherd... it was clear he was already doing the work of an elder. Our "ordination service" was a formality, God had already called him.

              Originally posted by Brother Paul View Post
              What is ordination

              A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

              If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

              Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

              Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

              What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

              Who ordains and what is required?

              Take your time but please weigh in…

              In His love
              Brother Paul
              I believe it is God and God alone who ordains a man (or woman) to do a certain work. At our congregation, myself and the other 2 elders will simply watch the congregation and see who begins to act in a certain capacity. For example, we had an elder move to another state and needed to replace him. We waited many months until we were sure that God had raised another individual for that work. We didn't have to discuss anything with anyone, by observation (and then by verifying through prayer) we installed the man who was already performing the role of a shepherd... it was clear he was already doing the work of an elder. Our "ordination service" was a formality, God had already called him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: How important is ordination by who

                Walls...you said

                "I think the best education would be an accredited Bible College followed by another 4-8 years of personal study independent of any learning institute."

                I would reverse the order....after 4-8 years of sincere personal study and hearing the word preached in various churches then a Bible School education can be useful but if the other way around the student can too easily be persuaded through the dialectic and rhetorical technique applied to cut and paste Bible quotes which ignore or re-interpret those passages which appear to refute their position.

                I would reverse the order...but in truth, only God ordains and only His ordination counts as far as I can tell in scripture. If God calls you to preach or teach do it in whatever capacity He opens for you and if some denomination refuses to recognize your divine appointment it is their loss.

                In His love

                Brother Paul

                Walls...you said

                "I think the best education would be an accredited Bible College followed by another 4-8 years of personal study independent of any learning institute."

                I would reverse the order....after 4-8 years of sincere personal study and hearing the word preached in various churches then a Bible School education can be useful but if the other way around the student can too easily be persuaded through the dialectic and rhetorical technique applied to cut and paste Bible quotes which ignore or re-interpret those passages which appear to refute their position.

                I would reverse the order...but in truth, only God ordains and only His ordination counts as far as I can tell in scripture. If God calls you to preach or teach do it in whatever capacity He opens for you and if some denomination refuses to recognize your divine appointment it is their loss.

                In His love

                Brother Paul

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: How important is ordination by who

                  The best pastors and evangelists I know were not seminary educated. Some of the most worthless ones I know hold Doctorate degrees. Not a universal statement, but just observation of what I have personally experienced.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: How important is ordination by who

                    If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved? Maybe, probably. We can't "look through God's eyes" to really know what God feels makes one more qualified. The question seems to state an opinion in the way it is worded though. Would it be less valid to ask: Does Bible School or Seminary help to prepare one for ministry? If ministry consists of some certain teachable aspects, then disciplines of learning in that regard should prove to make one more qualified.

                    Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination? I like Redeemed By Grace's answer to this question. I am not opposed to a method of granting ministerial credentials by institutions or organizations. To the extent that the method of credentialing ministers consists of examination and/or possession of qualifications, then yes. Also, if there are abuses performed by a minister, then accountability to an institution or organization is also valuable.

                    Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God? Of course not. I was shocked as a young Christian a few (few) years back when I read a poll about how many in the "professional clergy" didn't believe in God. Huh? So yes, there is prevalent in the world the thought that ministry is a chosen and trained profession, but that doesn't mean there can't be those who are called into the ministry and prepare and/or are credentialed through institutions and organizations.

                    What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word? Who ordains and what is required? Perhaps something like 1 Timothy 4, with emphasis on verse 14. Ultimately God ordains.

                    I also wanted to offer this passage, which I think would be an example of how training can help us in ministry. This is the kind of training we all need:

                    Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

                    13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
                    Watchinginawe

                    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How important is ordination by who

                      Seminary or Bible college is in no way a prerequisite or requirement for entrance into fivefold ministry. It is God who calls, not man. However, these are simply tools that God uses with many individuals. Personally, I spent five years studying the word of God from 5 to 8 hours a day before I went to Bible College. I believe that my true education came during those times, not at Bible College. Yet, the experience at school was something that God used to help further my development.

                      If God calls, there is nothing that man can do to take away from it. If God does not call, there is nothing man can do to add to it.
                      Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: How important is ordination by who

                        Originally posted by Brother Paul View Post
                        Walls...you said

                        "I think the best education would be an accredited Bible College followed by another 4-8 years of personal study independent of any learning institute."

                        I would reverse the order....after 4-8 years of sincere personal study and hearing the word preached in various churches then a Bible School education can be useful but if the other way around the student can too easily be persuaded through the dialectic and rhetorical technique applied to cut and paste Bible quotes which ignore or re-interpret those passages which appear to refute their position.

                        I would reverse the order...but in truth, only God ordains and only His ordination counts as far as I can tell in scripture. If God calls you to preach or teach do it in whatever capacity He opens for you and if some denomination refuses to recognize your divine appointment it is their loss.

                        In His love

                        Brother Paul
                        I would agree with you.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: How important is ordination by who

                          Seminary doesn't teach me what to think. Seminary teaches me how to collect thoughts and put them onto paper. It teaches me how to deal with people as Jesus did. It causes me to open my eyes by asking tough questions.

                          It teaches me about laws that govern tax-exempt organizations and details of operating a church within the law.

                          It teaches recommendations for dealing with alcoholics and drug addicts.

                          The bible teaches me what to think when I prayerfully examine what all the scriptures collectively say.

                          There is much danger is obtaining doctrines from a seminary. They can teach one only what a denomination holds true which is not necessarily what God says.

                          Seminary is useful, but God can let us bypass it if He chooses to. There is a lot to be learned there, but we can do God's work without it.

                          It is state law that uses an ordination to establish a person's position in regard to their laws. A group can accept a person as a spiritual leader without one.
                          Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
                          George Orwell

                          www.r2ucv.com



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: How important is ordination by who

                            Originally posted by Boo View Post
                            Seminary doesn't teach me what to think. Seminary teaches me how to collect thoughts and put them onto paper. It teaches me how to deal with people as Jesus did. It causes me to open my eyes by asking tough questions.

                            It teaches me about laws that govern tax-exempt organizations and details of operating a church within the law.

                            It teaches recommendations for dealing with alcoholics and drug addicts.

                            The bible teaches me what to think when I prayerfully examine what all the scriptures collectively say.

                            There is much danger is obtaining doctrines from a seminary. They can teach one only what a denomination holds true which is not necessarily what God says.

                            Seminary is useful, but God can let us bypass it if He chooses to. There is a lot to be learned there, but we can do God's work without it.

                            It is state law that uses an ordination to establish a person's position in regard to their laws. A group can accept a person as a spiritual leader without one.
                            There will also come a time when those things created (ordained) by man, will be shaken, so that those things which cannot be shaken (ordained by God) remain...(Heb 12:27).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: How important is ordination by who

                              Brother Paul, why an accredited Bible College? Some of the better Bible colleges I know are not accredited. Accredidation is important in a secular degree. Bible College is a bit different. You do not need to study 2 years of liberal arts, math, sciences, etc. before beginning seminary training. You can go to a 4 year Bible college that teaches Bible and Biblical studies for 4 years and come out with much more knowledge than wasting 2+ on liberal arts. In hindsight, I definitely consider the liberal arts part of my education as a waste of time.

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