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  • Discussion saved by faith

    This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
    in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
    tell me you opinion!!!!!

  • #2
    The truth is I am saved by GRACE. God is soverign and gives us free will and the gift of faith and that IS grace that while we did not deserve it He gave it to us.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by belville View Post
      This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
      in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
      tell me you opinion!!!!!
      Neither. God chose me before I was born and not only knew I would be saved but ordered events to lead to my salvation.
      ♪ Each day may Christ become clearer, His Cross dearer, Our Hope nearer. ♫

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by belville View Post
        This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
        in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
        tell me you opinion!!!!!
        How can you be a christian and believe that you can be saved with out faith?
        The question is not do we make the decision we all agree on that.
        But rather witch comes first you choosing him or him choosing you. That is to say does God elect me because I chose him or did I chose him because he elected me, assuming the fact that we agree that no one comes to God with out God drawing them.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by crossnote View Post
          Neither. God chose me before I was born and not only knew I would be saved but ordered events to lead to my salvation.
          what place does regeneration have in salvation ?

          Comment


          • #6
            From my standpoint, I chose Jesus by my own freewill.

            But God knows how everything turns out. He knew it at the beginning.
            That’s when He wrote our names down in the Lamb’s book of life..

            (Speaking of those who will worship the anti-Christ)
            All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
            Revelation 13:8 NASB

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by belville View Post
              This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
              in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
              tell me you opinion!!!!!
              Your question is confusing to me. Certainly we are saved by faith, but you seem to be asking about free will or predestination.
              If you mean that God know that we had that "special sort of faith" which would enable us to believe?
              The answer is no.
              He is the author and perfecter of our faith. (Hebrews 12:2)

              Comment


              • #8
                I think the real question is...

                what is the real faith that is worthy of salvation, and who is worthy to decide if one has that real faith?

                At this point I usually ask for a show of hands as to who thinks they are worthy to decide who does and doesn't think they have the righteousness to judge real faith even of themselves.

                But I won't.



                I can say however that the real answer is where real humility is found.

                Comment


                • #9
                  As a follow up...

                  I often see people confuse the biblical words will be to mean suddenly becomes. It seems to me though that that confusion is oddly what keeps the doors of many churches open.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    then finally...

                    As for Choice... If I do indeed have it, I want nothing to do with it. For I have seen what I have done with it.

                    If I do have choice, then I freely give it away and choose not to have choice or free will. I choose that my will be non-existent and only the will of God is done and exists.

                    If I don't have Choice then I there is nothing I can do and it's futile anyway.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think we all have the same path but we each carve out new ones at every chance.


                      Thats why the spirit had to work its way in Israel and on the Earth to give us a remembrance a light. Or else we would all follow after our own will and carve a long path and look back and our trail is grown over and we become lost. Jesus Christ is the light which leads us back to our ordained path.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Redimido View Post
                        How can you be a christian and believe that you can be saved with out faith?
                        The question is not do we make the decision we all agree on that.
                        But rather witch comes first you choosing him or him choosing you. That is to say does God elect me because I chose him or did I chose him because he elected me, assuming the fact that we agree that no one comes to God with out God drawing them.
                        Scripture is clear - we choose God because God has chosen us:-

                        Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48 NKJV

                        Note it DOESN'T say "and as many as believed were appointed to eternal life".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well verses

                          These are the verses about that:
                          Ephesians 2:8
                          For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
                          Philippians 1:28
                          without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.
                          2 Thessalonians 2:13
                          [ Stand Firm ] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
                          2 Timothy 1:9
                          who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
                          Titus 3:5
                          he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,


                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Originally posted by belville View Post
                          This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
                          in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
                          tell me you opinion!!!!!
                          Shinjitsu wa itsumo hitotsu
                          2 Timothy 3:16 Jehovah Jireh Matthew 6:33

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
                            Scripture is clear - we choose God because God has chosen us:-

                            Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48 NKJV

                            Note it DOESN'T say "and as many as believed were appointed to eternal life".
                            I do not thinks things are quite so simple.

                            Calvinists sometimes appeal to Acts 13:48 in support of the notion that some people are “elected” or fore-ordained to salvation. Here is the text in the NASB:

                            When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

                            The phase here translated as "had been appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is a form of the Greek word “tasso”. Now a word here about the linguistic concept of a “voice”. From wikipedia:

                            In grammar, the voice (also called gender or diathesis) of a verb describes the relationship between the action (or state) that the verb expresses and the participants identified by its arguments (subject, object, etc.). When the subject is the agent or actor of the verb, the verb is in the active voice. When the subject is the patient, target or undergoer of the action, it is said to be in the passive voice.

                            For example, in the sentence:

                            The cat ate the mouse.

                            the verb "ate" is in the active voice, but in the sentence:

                            The mouse was eaten by the cat.

                            the verbal phrase "was eaten" is passive.

                            For our present purposes, we need to also introduce the “middle voice”. Again from wikipedia:

                            Some languages (such as Sanskrit, Icelandic and Classical Greek) have a middle voice. The middle voice is in the middle of the active and the passive voice because the subject cannot be categorized as either agent or patient but has elements of both. An intransitive verb that appears active but expresses a passive action characterizes the English middle voice. For example, in “The casserole cooked in the oven”, cooked appears syntactically active but semantically passive, putting it in the middle voice. In Classical Greek, the middle voice is often reflexive, denoting that the subject acts on or for itself, such as "The boy washes himself", or "The boy washes."

                            Note: Classical Greek, the language in which Acts was written is identified as possessing this “middle voice”

                            Now in Greek, the same form is used to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. Almost all English Bibles translate this inherently ambiguous form in the passive voice (the subject receives the action). However, if it is translated in the middle voice (the subject initiates the action), the Acts 13:48 passage would read something like, “ . . .as many as agreed with eternal life believed."

                            As stated, there is nothing in the Greek grammar itself that demands a passive or a middle voice rendering – the form is inherently ambiguous and we need context to resolve things.

                            I will now provide a claim I read on the web. I have no immediate evidence of its correctness. However, this claim at least raises the possibility that there may have been “translation” decisions made were not quite right. And I suspect that all of us here believe that it is only the original texts, as penned, that are inspired. In other words, I suspect that the Christian needs to be open to the possibility of translation errors.

                            There are convincing historical arguments that ancient Greeks saw the default rendering of "tetagmenoi" as middle voice, even as modern Greeks do. For example, the most current and largest publication on Verbs in Greece, the Lexicon of Ancient Greek Verbs by B. D. Anagnostopoulos (a book without theological interests), shows "tetagmenos" on page 1099, in the middle voice. Even in ancient Greek manuscripts, we can find “tetagmenoi” used in the middle voice. It is quite evident that ancient Greeks generally understood "tetagmenoi" to be in the middle voice.

                            Now, this does not establish that a translation error has occurred. Much more context analysis is required. But it does show that the quoted claim that "scripture is clear" is really a bit of a simplification.

                            I hope to continue this line of argumentation later....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by belville View Post
                              This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
                              in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
                              tell me you opinion!!!!!
                              I see it as this:
                              Based on the foreknowledge God has, He "chose" me, because he knew the choice I would make in responding to him & choosing to accept him.
                              Kinda like what 9Marksfan said.... but maybe with a little different wording....


                              God knew US before we were formed in the womb. Our names were also written in the "book of life" from the foundation of the world.

                              So it's not that God decided, "I'll choose this guy & this guy, ... not him, not her, ... I'll take her & her... etc..." but rather, because he KNOWS everybody that has & will respond to him.
                              Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
                              _______________________________________________
                              There was a time when I used to think Macro-evolution might be a possibility..... but then I GREW UP!
                              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Meike & I have the same birthday! Na-na na, na-na!!!

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