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Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

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  • Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

    This is the clearest passage that suggests God created Christ. The Septuagint translation of 8:22 was read to them to mean, "the Lord created me". Wisdom in Proverbs 8 seems to be a personality (Christ) by which God made the world.

    The Lord possessed[b] me at the beginning of his work,[c]
    the first of his acts of old.

    23 Ages ago I was set up,
    at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
    24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water.
    25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
    before the hills, I was brought forth,
    26 before he had made the earth with its fields,
    or the first of the dust of the world.
    27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
    when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
    28 when he made firm the skies above,
    when he established[d] the fountains of the deep,
    29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
    so that the waters might not transgress his command,
    when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
    30 then I was beside him, like a master workman,
    and I was daily his[e] delight,
    rejoicing before him always,
    31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
    and delighting in the children of man.
    I know what I know
    I know what I don't know
    I don't know what I don't know.

  • #2
    Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

    God's wisdom is being personified, as a figure of speech. She is also a she; Jesus is a he. If you read all of Proverbs, this personification figure of speech is easy to recognize. Especially when we read about Wisdom's opposite, Folly, who is personified as well, as a woman who brings death.

    See Proverbs 3.13-20, where the author tells how 'She is a tree of life', and how God created the world 'by Wisdom', that is, 'by his knowledge'.

    Jesus also distinguishes himself from Lady Wisdom in Matthew 11.19.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

      Originally posted by exitludos View Post
      God's wisdom is being personified, as a figure of speech. She is also a she; Jesus is a he. If you read all of Proverbs, this personification figure of speech is easy to recognize. Especially when we read about Wisdom's opposite, Folly, who is personified as well, as a woman who brings death.

      See Proverbs 3.13-20, where the author tells how 'She is a tree of life', and how God created the world 'by Wisdom', that is, 'by his knowledge'.
      That's what I'm doing - one Prov per day for each day of the month since there are 31 Proverbs. Today being the 8th corresponded to a study of Prov 8 where this nugget was uncovered. Proverbs 8 seems to have played a role the NT writings such as Col 1:17 "And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

      The Tree of life is an expression of a metaphor referring to temporal and spiritual renewal and refreshment.

      Here's the ESV note:

      Prov. 3:18 The tree of life first appears in Genesis (Gen. 2:9; 3:22, 24) and is referred to as if it had the effect of confirming a person in his moral state (see esp. Gen. 3:22). Through obedience, Adam and Eve would have had continued access to the tree and would have been confirmed in an unblemished state, but upon disobedience they were mercifully removed from the garden to keep from being confirmed in a state of guilt. This helps explain the image in Proverbs: the things that are called a “tree of life” are pictured as means by which the righteous continue on and are further confirmed in the way that is blessed in the end (cf. Prov. 11:30; 13:12; 15:4). The tree appears again in Revelation with a similar function of confirming in holiness those who conquer (see Rev. 2:7; 22:2, 14, 19).
      I know what I know
      I know what I don't know
      I don't know what I don't know.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

        Christ was not created, he is God and is eternal just as his Father is.


        Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

        Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
        Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
        Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

        Jesus appeared to Abraham long before he was born into flesh. He had his own form, his own body.


        1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
        1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
        1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

        Jeses has immortality!


        Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


        evermore
        165

        165 aion {ahee-ohn'}

        from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m

        AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
        age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

        1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
        2) the worlds, universe
        3) period of time, age


        1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.


        eternal
        166

        166 aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}

        from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj

        AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,
        since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71

        1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and
        always will be
        2) without beginning
        3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

        For Synonyms see entry 5801




        This eternal life is in the Son...The difference here is while this is given to us, it is stated that it is in the Son. I do not believe it was given to him but that he had always possessed it based on the various things we are discussing.





        Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;


        Jesus himself said he is the first and the last...that is eternal. This is applied also to the Father because he also is eternal. Not only that but they both together make the same type of statement in the OT. If one is eternal, so must be the Son.






        1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.



        2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



        Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


        John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
        John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
        John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



        John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
        John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
        John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


        ever
        165

        165 aion {ahee-ohn'}

        from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m

        AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
        age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

        1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
        2) the worlds, universe
        3) period of time, age



        Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
        Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
        Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
        Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
        Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
        Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
        Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
        Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


        Paul teaches that the Father identified the Son as God.


        1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


        Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


        Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


        John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
        John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


        When I am face to face with Christ, I shall also declare him to be my Lord and God.


        Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


        So is the Son eternal? Of course Is the Son also God? Of course.
        James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

          Jesus is not a created being, he was and has always been with his Father. There has never been a time when Wisdom (Jesus) to have ever been apart from each other. The Word dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in the Word...As it is written....

          Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
          Col 2:9 For in him (Jesus) the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

          When God created the world and every thing in it, the first thing he did was to bring forth Wisdom. Jesus is the Wisdom of God, and it was through Wisdom he created all things, visible and invisible. All things were made by him and for him, and without him nothing was made that was made. This is why it tells us in Proverbs that the most important thing in your life above every thing is to get Wisdom. There is nothing you can compare Wisdom to. It is the principle thing. The most valuable thing God can give to any man or woman is Wisdom. There will nothing in this life or the next that can be greater than this. What ever you do in life seek Wisdom and get understanding. Lift your voice for it, cry for it, make it the number one thing in your life.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

            Originally posted by Curtis View Post
            Jesus is not a created being, he was and has always been with his Father.
            Amen. We will see a lot of that same sentiment.
            James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

              Originally posted by Nick View Post
              This is the clearest passage that suggests God created Christ. The Septuagint translation of 8:22 was read to them to mean, "the Lord created me". Wisdom in Proverbs 8 seems to be a personality (Christ) by which God made the world.
              no nO NO!!!!!
              1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

              1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
              1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified....................v24 .....the wisdom of God.
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


              1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

              1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

                Originally posted by exitludos View Post
                God's wisdom is being personified, as a figure of speech. She is also a she; Jesus is a he. If you read all of Proverbs, this personification figure of speech is easy to recognize. Especially when we read about Wisdom's opposite, Folly, who is personified as well, as a woman who brings death.

                See Proverbs 3.13-20, where the author tells how 'She is a tree of life', and how God created the world 'by Wisdom', that is, 'by his knowledge'.

                Jesus also distinguishes himself from Lady Wisdom in Matthew 11.19.
                ummm...truth is a she as well. That's because Hebrew has everything in gender form...like French or Italian. A table in French is feminine..... as in...une table. In Hebrew it is...HaHochmah hiy... the wisdom she is...

                Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



                sigpic
                מרן אתא

                Walk in the Light!
                התהלכו באור

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

                  Originally posted by Nick
                  Interestingly enough, that was taken right out of the introduction to Proverbs in the ESV study bible under the section "Christ and Wisdom".
                  what was? I've googled and haven't a clue what you are talking about.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

                    Originally posted by Noeb View Post
                    what was? I've googled and haven't a clue what you are talking about.
                    It's in introduction to Proverbs in the ESV study bible
                    I know what I know
                    I know what I don't know
                    I don't know what I don't know.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

                      This is the clearest passage that suggests God created Christ. The Septuagint translation of 8:22 was read to them to mean, "the Lord created me". Wisdom in Proverbs 8 seems to be a personality (Christ) by which God made the world.
                      You go too far...God creating wisdom and Jesus personifying wisdom to us does not mean that God created Christ. God the Father also personifies wisdom to us. But He did not create Himself.

                      Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.



                      sigpic
                      מרן אתא

                      Walk in the Light!
                      התהלכו באור

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

                        Originally posted by episkopos View Post
                        You go too far...God creating wisdom and Jesus personifying wisdom to us does not mean that God created Christ. God the Father also personifies wisdom to us. But He did not create Himself.
                        Perhaps not. That's how I read it and the Septuagint translation mentioned in the introduction "the Lord created me" threw me off. Yours and other people's responses, with the exception of one, helped course correct that misunderstanding.
                        I know what I know
                        I know what I don't know
                        I don't know what I don't know.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

                          Originally posted by Nick View Post
                          It's in introduction to Proverbs in the ESV study bible
                          *what* is? quote it please.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

                            Nick,

                            Are you now saying that you were wrong and misunderstood? God is Christ and Christ is God. Always has been and always will be. Jesus was before creation just as the Holy Spirit was.

                            Do you understand this?
                            Day by day
                            Oh Dear Lord
                            Three things I pray
                            To see thee more clearly
                            Love thee more dearly
                            Follow thee more nearly
                            Day by day

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Christ was the incarnation of Wisdom in Proverbs 8

                              Mod note: I've deleted some posts that were unnecessary and unedifying. Got a problem with it? Start a chat to mod thread addressed to me and I'll be happy to elaborate. I would suggest a quick read through of Bible Forums code of conduct before you do though.
                              Day by day
                              Oh Dear Lord
                              Three things I pray
                              To see thee more clearly
                              Love thee more dearly
                              Follow thee more nearly
                              Day by day

                              Comment

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