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  • FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

    Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

    What's your practice on forgiveness? I try to be quick to ask forgiveness and also quick to forgive. But I have noticed in real life as well as on this board, that some Christians are neither.

    Since, we can all relate to scenarios on this board, let's use that for an example. When someone crosses the line and posts something unlike Christ (which I have done), does this person admit their fault and ask forgiveness or do they dig in their position deeper? When someone does ask forgiveness, do you respond and forgive or do you ignore it and choose not to forgive?

    In real life, I see the same dynamic and PRIDE is the root of this problem. God has been teaching me for some time now to admit my faults and also to walk in total forgiveness. I am trying to teach my church the same.

    When I admit my faults you may think less of me, but God thinks more of me. That's all that matters to me.

    If there is anyone in your life who you have not forgiven, please do so today. It's been said that unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to get sick. It only hurts yourself.

    Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  • #2
    Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

    Forgiveness is the easiest concept that is the most difficult to practice. To say, I forgive you, is easy, when we talk or write about it. Saying, "I am sorry" is just as easy. How often is it practiced in reality? That's a different story altogether. Jesus tells us that we are to forgive one another of our sins, but when our feelings get hurt, or we are actually wronged, we, as humans, naturally gravitate towards revenge. It is as natural as waking up, because most of us feel a sense of justice. When we are wronged, we do not wish to see that person forgiven. What feelings bubble up when someone mentions the name, Jim Jones. It's cool, I feel the same way Anger, a wish to go back in time to... do unChristian things to that man.

    God knows that this feeling is inside of us, and yet, He tells us that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. We, as humans, can not exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees since we are slaves to sin. However, with the Lord, all things are possible. Forgiveness is one o them. Jesus by making the 70x7 commandment because God also knows that we ALL make mistakes, and we have to fight a corruption that has been around since the Garden of Eden. So, how many times do we need to ask for forgiveness? The answer is that we need to be forgiven as many times as necessary in order to fulfil our task of exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees. Knowing this, God gave us this command, to forgive each other as many times as necessary. I don't know about everyone else, but I reached the 490 mark a LONG TIME AGO.

    So, I agree with you, and add that the 490 times is not enough to actually forgive someone of his or her sins. I sin daily. I wish I didn't. I am not strong enough to overcome my sinful nature sometimes. When that happens, I go to the Lord for forgiveness. How can I expect forgiveness of my sins when I do not forgive others? Jesus has it right. Forgive, so we can be forgiven.

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    • #3
      Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

      I actually find it hard to hold grudges, and it sometimes bothers me that I can't stay mad at someone for more than a few days.
      「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
      撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

        I remember reading somewhere that the number 490 has some other spiritual significance to it. At first, I thought it was the years in captivity but that was 430, not 490.
        I know what I know
        I know what I don't know
        I don't know what I don't know.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

          Remember, Jesus repeats it three times, He says "If He repents..."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

            Originally posted by ChangedByHim View Post
            Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

            What's your practice on forgiveness? I try to be quick to ask forgiveness and also quick to forgive. But I have noticed in real life as well as on this board, that some Christians are neither.

            Since, we can all relate to scenarios on this board, let's use that for an example. When someone crosses the line and posts something unlike Christ (which I have done), does this person admit their fault and ask forgiveness or do they dig in their position deeper? When someone does ask forgiveness, do you respond and forgive or do you ignore it and choose not to forgive?

            In real life, I see the same dynamic and PRIDE is the root of this problem. God has been teaching me for some time now to admit my faults and also to walk in total forgiveness. I am trying to teach my church the same.

            When I admit my faults you may think less of me, but God thinks more of me. That's all that matters to me.

            If there is anyone in your life who you have not forgiven, please do so today. It's been said that unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to get sick. It only hurts yourself.

            Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
            Walking in forgiveness is absolutely essential if we really are serious about walking with the Lord.

            I always try to forgive quickly and admit my error quickly, it pays dividends.

            I believe one of the problems we have with forgiveness as believers is a completely false comprehension of what the word means in scripture.

            In general English usage, the word forgive or forgiveness has emotional connotations. ie. If someone offends us, we may take weeks, even years, even a life time, to forgive either the person, or even the event which caused the pain. The speed of our decision is generally determined by the extent of the pain we still feel. Forgiveness has to wait until the time we are sufficiently ok about our pain.

            In English, too much feeling is associated to the word, which is not there in the original Greek of the scripture.

            The most used Greek word for forgiveness is "Aphiemi", or derivatives of it. It will come as a shock to most people to see what the word actually means.

            Aphiemi is all these and more. -
            Send away,
            release,
            let go,
            permit.
            divorce,
            etc.

            There is no hint of feelings attached to any of it.

            The range of verses where aphiemi is used, but not translated as forgive will help understanding of the word.

            Paul on divorce.
            1Cor7v12But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. (or let him not forgive her?)

            The woman at the well.
            John4v28. So the woman left (forgave) her waterpot, and went into the city and said to the men,

            The crucifixion.
            Matt27v50. And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up (forgave) His spirit.


            Scripture is full of samples like these. I did a concordance search many years ago, and it opened my eyes.
            Aphiemi would in my view be far better translated as, "let go", "forego", or "release". The word forgive is too tied up with our emotions.

            I always forgive people because of "enlightened self interest". I don't forgive people or events because I wish to show any superior spirituality. I forgive for my own sake rather than theirs! I seriously value the amazing freedom that walking a life of constant forgiveness can give me.
            I think it was Joyce Meyer who rightly said, "Unforgiveness, is like drinking poison, and waiting for the other person to die!" An amazing truth to deeply consider.

            Unforgiveness is like a rope which binds a person to someone else, or to some past event. It is as if we are still waiting for recompense, which most likely will never come.
            If we have lost a childhood because of abuse, we might still be deeply hurting angry about it. We have not forgiven, as in "Let Go Of It" because we still feel immense pain inside.
            Unfortunately that pain is likely to continue because we are still chained spiritually to that event and person. Even if that person is long dead, this still holds true. Satan will still occupy and abuse that part of you, which still has that chain attached. Only you can disconnect that chain.

            So, do not wait till you feel better about things before you forgive. Forgive first and foremost, and start to feel better immediately. And as your thoughts might return back to the hurt, speak out loud again to the Lord, that you forgive again.
            Keep speaking it as a balm to your spirit!
            It is your healing, because God cannot touch that part of you which you have kept assigned and chained to some historic happening.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

              Y
              Originally posted by Brother Paul View Post
              Remember, Jesus repeats it three times, He says "If He repents..."
              But if he does it 490 times, I bet that in your mind he didn't repent. Right?


              And pardon my ignorance BP, but what exact verses in Matthew 18, in this passage, did Jesus say, "If he repents?"
              Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

                Originally posted by ChangedByHim View Post
                Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

                What's your practice on forgiveness? I try to be quick to ask forgiveness and also quick to forgive. But I have noticed in real life as well as on this board, that some Christians are neither.

                Since, we can all relate to scenarios on this board, let's use that for an example. When someone crosses the line and posts something unlike Christ (which I have done), does this person admit their fault and ask forgiveness or do they dig in their position deeper? When someone does ask forgiveness, do you respond and forgive or do you ignore it and choose not to forgive?

                In real life, I see the same dynamic and PRIDE is the root of this problem. God has been teaching me for some time now to admit my faults and also to walk in total forgiveness. I am trying to teach my church the same.

                When I admit my faults you may think less of me, but God thinks more of me. That's all that matters to me.

                If there is anyone in your life who you have not forgiven, please do so today. It's been said that unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to get sick. It only hurts yourself.

                Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
                I am wondering too ChangedbyHim if Matthew 18:15-17 verses just before those quoted have anything to do with the subject--as far as admitting ones faults..sort of along the lines of repenting.

                “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone.
                If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
                But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
                If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.
                And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.



                In these days what would a "Gentile or Tax Collector" be equated to?

                It seems perhaps a person one wishes to purposely avoid or not have close relationship with? Like if one was a Jew a gentile was not someone they closely associated themselves with--- A tax collector was perhaps seen as someone who was merciless at times, and perhaps very dishonest?

                So the goal to forgive others remains, but to associate with someone who is not repentant is ill advised.

                In that case what do the next verses mean in connection, these verses falling just before the forgiveness 70X7 verses ?

                Matthew 18:18-20
                Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”




                Peace to you!

                It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

                1 Corinthians 1:30

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

                  The passage that you quoted is what led Peter to ask Jesus about how many times to forgive.
                  Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

                    Originally posted by ChangedByHim View Post
                    The passage that you quoted is what led Peter to ask Jesus about how many times to forgive.
                    And Jesus was telling them something before Peter asked too right?
                    What was He telling them?

                    I am not wanting to go off on a tangent, but because you brought up admitting your own faults, it seemed to be pertinent to the discussion?

                    If someone tells me I did something offensive against them, and I won't admit it even when two three and more tell me I did, how can they have a close relationship with me anymore? I am in pride, and the removal of relationship may either further cement it, or loosen it's ties upon me depending?

                    When the person confronted did not admit their wrong, the relationship of the "close brother" was then to change to a "non-brother" status?
                    Peace to you!

                    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

                    1 Corinthians 1:30

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

                      Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
                      And Jesus was telling them something before Peter asked too right?
                      Yes... that's what I meant.

                      What was He telling them?

                      I am not wanting to go off on a tangent, but because you brought up admitting your own faults, it seemed to be pertinent to the discussion?

                      If someone tells me I did something offensive against them, and I won't admit it even when two three and more tell me I did, how can they have a close relationship with me anymore? I am in pride, and the removal of relationship may either further cement it, or loosen it's ties upon me depending?

                      When the person confronted did not admit their wrong, the relationship of the "close brother" was then to change to a "non-brother" status?
                      It all comes down to PRIDE, IMO. We so want to defend our position that we won't hear a brother. We justify ourselves in the defense of our position. A person can go to hell and have all of their doctrines right.
                      Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

                        Originally posted by ChangedByHim View Post
                        Yes... that's what I meant.



                        It all comes down to PRIDE, IMO. We so want to defend our position that we won't hear a brother. We justify ourselves in the defense of our position. A person can go to hell and have all of their doctrines right.
                        I am wondering if by not hearing another do you mean not hearing that they themselves have committed an offense or?

                        My thoughts:
                        If debating positions on doctrine is the main factor or a catalyst/excuse for me to sin against/commit an offense against another, then it is I who am in the wrong in committing an offense regardless if my position in doctrine is right or wrong. And perhaps, I need to do something other than debate, especially if it is in regard to non-essentials.

                        I have heard many times that if a person is offended, it is because they choose to be, and so, when a person commits an actual offense (wrong doing) and they say " I am sorry if you are offended" to a person who confronts the offense, suddenly it is the one who the actual offense was committed against that is wrong in "supposedly feeling offended" because they are confronting an offense.
                        Seems backwards to me, quite honestly. The English language often needs clarification.(like the word definitions for offense are split into several different definitions)

                        1.
                        a. The act of causing anger, resentment, displeasure, or affront.
                        b. The state of being offended.

                        2.
                        a. A violation or infraction of a moral or social code; a transgression or sin.
                        b. A transgression of law; a crime.

                        3. Something that outrages moral sensibilities: Genocide is an offense to all civilized humans.
                        4. (fns) The act of attacking or assaulting.
                        5. (fns) Sports
                        a. The means or tactics used in attempting to score.
                        b. A team in possession of the ball or puck, or those players whose primary duty is to attempt to score.
                        c. Scoring ability or potential.
                        Peace to you!

                        It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

                        1 Corinthians 1:30

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

                          the bible says "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". God takes it further in saying that:

                          King James Bible Hebrews 8:12
                          For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

                          How many times have any of us heard "well, I do forgive them, but I won't forget". I don't know that in the flesh we are ever "able" to forget, but if that "I won't forget" is just a contradiction to saying they forgive a person, then God also says:

                          Matthew 6:14

                          (NKJV)

                          14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

                            Originally posted by Oregongrown View Post
                            the bible says "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". God takes it further in saying that:

                            King James Bible Hebrews 8:12
                            For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

                            How many times have any of us heard "well, I do forgive them, but I won't forget". I don't know that in the flesh we are ever "able" to forget, but if that "I won't forget" is just a contradiction to saying they forgive a person, then God also says:

                            Matthew 6:14

                            (NKJV)

                            14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
                            I think especially in certain cases, a person does need to remember...especially in abusive relationships, someone taking advantage of them, stealing from them, etc. Forgetting what they have done and acting like it never happened, leaves a person open to having them being abused, stolen from, etc all over again. Lets say Joe had a really good friend, or at least he thought so until one day he caught his friend stealing one of his CD's. Over the years other small things had gone missing but Joe just thought he misplaced them. Never dreaming they had been stolen and certainly not by his friend. Joe is completely hurt, very angry and outraged over what his friend did. Eventually he forgives him...but should he forget? And be friends again with someone that clearly hasn't changed and will continue stealing from him? Should he just allow that person to keep stealing from him and him continuing to forgive and forget?

                            I don't see the bible telling us to be doormats and just allowing a person to continue to mistreat us. Forgiving them, yes, but to forget to the point we allow it to continue to happen? Jesus was constantly being badgered by the religious teachers of that time. He confronted them and their tricks, stood up for Himself and dealt with them each time it happened. Finally as we read in Matthew 23 He lays judgment on them. Which considering who He was, was pretty frightening!

                            God bless
                            "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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                            • #15
                              Re: FORGIVENESS - 70 x 7?

                              I was of thinking of something similar moonglow, except we know if a person continues to steal from us, this could be our own fault because after forgiveness, we've let our guard down. Maybe exceptions of unforgiveness in cases of terrible offenses (much worse than stealing) is protection against the offender. If our guard is down, they will see us as vulnerable and attempt it again.

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